“Moody’s Investors Service has downgraded the long-term credit ratings of six Canadian banks, including Toronto-Dominion, Bank of Nova Scotia, Bank of Montreal and CIBC. National Bank and Desjardins were also downgraded. The ratings agency lowered each of its ratings one notch, citing high levels of consumer debt and high home prices as threats to the Canadian economy.
“High levels of consumer indebtedness and elevated housing prices leave Canadian banks more vulnerable than in the past to downside risks the Canadian economy faces,” David Beattie, vice-president at Moody’s said in a note.
Canadian consumer debt has risen to a record-high 165 per cent of disposable income in the third quarter of 2012, up from 137 per cent in mid-2007. Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney has repeatedly warned about these levels, but they remain stubbornly high.”
– from ‘Moody’s downgrades 6 Canadian banks’, CBC, 28 Jan 2013 [hat-tip Bally]
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Latest Anecdotes:
- “I’m surprised that everyone else is so surprised to hear anyone talk about a housing bubble” – “Canadian RE 2021 worse than U.S. bubble at 2006 peak” – David Rosenburg
- “Always the Right Time to Buy!” – Cheap Rope For Vancouver RE Buyers
- Mortgage Squeeze Anecdotes – “Two days ago my mortgage holder called and told me that, after 22 years, they would not renew my mortgage.”
- Wow! – CMHC CEO Evan Siddall Points To Unsustainable Debt & Calls For 18% Drop In Housing Prices – [which of course would mean a lot more off]
- Prediction: Vancouver RE Prices Will Not Crash… Unless They Crash
- Pre-Existing Disease – COVID Economic Stress Uncovers Longstanding Vulnerability in Vancouver RE Market
- COVID-19 the Pin for the Highly Debt-Leveraged Vancouver RE Bubble?
- Vancouver Sun Headline – ‘Five more Metro Vancouver homeowners hosed in a falling market’
- Vancouver RE Prices – Where is the Support?
- Money Laundering & Vancouver Home Prices
- “Psychologically, They’re Ill-Prepared” – “Canadian Chaos Looms”
- Keeping Up With Other Bubbles – Australia Suddenly Not Running Out Of Land Anymore – “Aussie House Prices Could Halve”
- Watershed? or Dam-Collapsing? – Mainstream Media Quoting Vancouver RE Bear-Tweets, and Predicting Shrinking Realtor Numbers – “What they’re used to is not what real estate is typically like.”
- “Within artistic communities in Vancouver it’s hard to spend more than 15 minutes at a social gathering without talking about the cost of rent or knowing of someone who is being evicted.”
- Macleans Wakes Up – ‘This is how Canada’s housing correction begins’ – “We’re not ready for what happens next”
- Vancouver Detached – Sales Down, Prices Down
- Bloomberg Calls Vancouver ‘The City That Had Too Much Money’
- “Our family loves Vancouver, but we’re leaving because the struggle to live here is simply too hard”
- Tendency Towards Corruption Is Inevitable – How Do We Minimize Its Existence?
- Hard Earned Home Savings? Hardly.
- “You know your real estate is in bad shape when there is a game app that displays Vancouver’s Science World and teaches you how to be a money hungry real estate developer.”
- “It’s sinking in that Vancouver is sinking” – “Westside prices have fallen 17% from 2016 & 11% this year; sales volumes down by 80%; 3 years worth of >$3 Million inventory”
- The Carrion Have The Carcass – “I’ve lived in Vancouver since 1968; my wife was born here; we are about to leave; this town has priced us out. All that is left are the investors and the very rich visitors.”
- All Time High, And Climbing… $251 Billion Personal Debt Borrowed Against Canadian Homes
- “I asked a group of young people how many of them thought they’d be in Vancouver in two years, and 17 out of 18 said that they would be moving.” – Mayoral Candidate Shauna Sylvester
- Off-The-Charts Unaffordable – Greater Vancouver Price-To-Income Ratio 28 (average home price: $1,071,800, median one-person income: $38,164)
- Conflicts of Interest – BC MLAs Heavily Invested In RE Making Laws About RE
- File Under Tags: ‘Tolerant Vancouver Renter’ and ‘YouGottaBeKiddinMe’
- Vancouver “an international housing-affordability basket case” with “RE bubble risk the worst in the world” – Maclean’s
- Vancouver Economy Over-Dependent On Debt Spending
- Vancouver City Councillors Wake Up To ‘Fierce Speculative Demand’ – “There is significant evidence speculative investment has the biggest impact on housing costs in the city.”
- The Dance Around Foreign Ownership of Vancouver RE
- Information From Outside The Vancouver RE Bubble – U.S. Senator Lives In (don’t laugh) $500K Home
- “The Position Remains Unfilled”
- Jessica Barrett – ‘I Left Vancouver Because Vancouver Left Me’ – “Like Living On An Abandoned Film Set.”
- “I’ve thought since early 2010 that Vancouver housing was in a bubble, and have refused to buy a house for this reason. I’ve felt that the risk of mean-reversion was far higher than the risk of missing the upside.”
- “It is very difficult to live here.”
- “We want young people to buy Real Estate.” – Vancouver’s Mayor
- “Vancouver RE Balloon Pricked; Median Price Detached Home Down >$500,000 to $1.7 million; Prices Need To Be Slashed”
- Detached Price Trend Remains Up, For Now. Speculators Hold Their Breath?
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I bet you 99% of the population has no idea what this means, nor why it even matters.
lol, agreed
To be fair, it doesn’t mean that much. Rating agencies have pretty much lost all credibility after the financial crisis in 2008. Didn’t see anything coming and still have limited foresight.
The fact that they cut almost all banks together at once indicates that they still have no feel for the dynamics of each bank’s internal strength. Simply saying “they are exposed to consumer debt” and cutting them all at once is kind of funny given that the profile of credit risk within each bank is hugely different.
This post isn’t intended to gloss over the fact that some banks are looking quite weak right now. If Moody’s was doing their homework, they would look into who is accessing hundreds of millions in BOC repos lately as a last resort overnight financing mechanism.
http://www.bankofcanada.ca/stats/bank_rate_html
I don’t disagree regarding the perceived credibility of the rating agencies but I take the across-the-board downgrade as an expression of their (lack of) confidence in the Canadian housing market/economy as a whole. That is, because all the banks are exposed to Canadian consumer credit risk, and that risk is increasing, they all get a downgrade.
Joe,
That’s exactly what scares me. After 30 years of working for an F.I., I found that regulators really have no understanding of how a modern F.I. operates. FICOMM and OSFI are supposed to be the watchdogs, but they are way over their heads and usually 2 steps behind.
Even a plain vanilla derivative such as an interest rate swap is beyond the comprehension of most federal/provincial auditors.
Therefore, I can understand why Moody’s are broad brushing the banks.
Anyone who thinks that the Canadian banking system ( the envy of the world) is well regulated and supervised is naive, to say the least.
It means rates will rise. The agencies just tarred the biggest part of the Canadian financial system with some bad marks. It is a slap and a warning. That will be noticed elsewhere.
It will not affect much in the end but it should be noted that banks funding costs are driven by their credit rating. A small downgrade is not significant but ultimately, when downgrades become more significant, the cost of borrowing goes up and they have to either pass that on or make lower margins. This will impact the banks a small amount but really not much as in the short-term money market, you won’t get much of a spread difference for these two ratings.
It is however the message that matters the most. I realize the agencies were not all that great in 2008 and prior but now they have to be a bit more straigh forward and make the downgrades when necessary.
Margins already low because consumer credit growth is nil and mortgage growth is falling off a cliff. Lending rates and fees will rise and the vicious cycle will begin – however it doesn’t seem bad for now.
Check bank earnings. There is lots of room for margins to go down.
Check loan loss provisions.
I bet they are way too low to cover the coming wave of defaults.
“I bet they are way too low to cover the coming wave of defaults”
Place your bet, then.
I’m sure the banks can find someone to rape, but stocks respond to earnings *growth*.
YVR, keep an eye on Canadian Western Bank.
Their main business is underwriting small to medium sized RE projects.
Risky in normal times, much more so now with a glut of unsold units.
Leaving aside, for the moment, the ‘DataGap’ as it relates to the BlackBoxes occasionally referred to as ‘banks’… there be other metrics which, thanks to a dearth of political will, are as sorely lacking…
DearReaders, your TuesdayMorningZen and… Quote O’ TheDay!
“Canada is a beautiful country. It is good for living, for higher education and it is not that populated.” – Mr. Zhang, owner of a steel business in Beijing, who ultimately bought a $2.2-million home in Oakville, ON because his 15-year-old daughter will be attending private school in Canada later this year [presumably without any help from any of our recently ‘shamed’ BlackBoxes]
[G&M] – Crucial Bit of Missing Information May Be Driving Canadian Home Prices
Canada’s housing market is a bubble about to burst in some cities, or in the midst of a soft landing. Either way, a crucial piece of information on just what’s driving the market is missing in action.
Unlike in other countries such as the United States and Australia, neither the Canadian federal government nor industry keeps track of the numbers of foreign buyers or where they come from. Anecdotal evidence about foreign buyers abounds, yet hard evidence is lacking.
http://tinyurl.com/apsldgq
Finally, the elephant in the room has been noticed.
Just the other day I was talking with a recent immigrant from China (elderly parent brought over with adult children who immigrated first). He was telling me that China is becoming unlivable due to the pollution in the air, the water, the land, and of course the food. He also had bad memories of unimaginable overcrowding.
Many people who are in the position to do so want to leave, and who can blame them. You can be fairly sure the demand to immigrate here is vast.
Whether the financial means and the absolute number that make it here amount to enough to “price out” the people already here earning a local income is a different question.
(This demand is of course proportional to the speculative activity of non-residents, in anticipation of selling later to the incoming wealthy).
Que the racist intolerant bigotry of those who believe this concessionary zone belongs to Canadians! Such disharmony!
On a long enough timeline everyone will be a Canadian.
“(This demand is of course proportional to the speculative activity of non-residents, in anticipation of selling later to the incoming wealthy).”
So true. Non-residents and residents alike. A mid-income couple I know have purchased three houses on the Westside over the past 10 years purely because they “know” there is an unlimited demand for Vancouver RE by HAM. Their strategy was well vetted and tested with family and friends back in the middle kingdom who apparently all dream of leaving.
Interestingly, I worked with two individuals who each owned no less than 10 houses “because there is a never-ending demand from rich immigrants willing to buy at any price to satisfy their investor visa requirements.” I thought they were a bit crazy but it appears that they made the right call recognizing the tidal wave of money behind the small ebb and flow tide that I saw. Vancouver’s bubble still has legs with the increasing rate at which the Chinese wealthy are emigrating and the increasing rate at which locals are leaving for other provinces.
so when do we run that horrible red flag up on canada place and call it a day?
DespairNot, NakedOfficial!!!
CorrectThinking, pliant compradors will be rewarded with our best assignments!
“You know how it is in China… For a young man who doesn’t earn very much, talking about love is unrealistic.” – Zhou Qihao, TaoBao RentBoy
[G&M] – Chinese Women Take RentBoys Home For Holidays
….”For the equivalent of $65, Zhou Qihao will let a girl take him home. For an extra $3 or so an hour, he’ll let her take him to a movie – but it costs double if she wants to have dinner beforehand.
Mr. Zhou is 24 years old, a bit taller than average at 1.78 metres, thin and “OK” looking (according to his online profile). Most of the year he works in home renovation, but with the Chinese New Year approaching – and all its attendant pressures on young women to show their parents and grandparents they’re getting closer to settling down and starting a family – he’s earning a little cash on the side as one of 260 “rental boyfriends” available on the China’s eBay-style direct-sales website, taobao…”…
http://tinyurl.com/bx7xvga
Bad Comprador! No TaoBao RentBoy Holiday for you!
[G&M] – HighRanking BC Liberal Probed for ‘Alleged’ Violation of Lobbying Rules
…”The vice-president of the BC Liberal Party is under investigation for failing to register as a lobbyist before contacting provincial government officials, including Jobs Minister Pat Bell, on behalf of a controversial Chinese investor.
The Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists in British Columbia said it is investigating whether Bill Belsey violated provincial lobbying regulations by working as an agent for Chinese businessman Ni Ritao and his companies, including Sun Wave Forest Products, the former owner of the Skeena Cellulose pulp mill in Prince Rupert.”…
http://tinyurl.com/ab6yqab
“For a young man who doesn’t earn very much, talking about love is unrealistic.” … how dickensian … perhaps the punditry to permit a presumption on rent vs own …
“Citing high levels of consumer debt and high home prices as threats to the Canadian economy.”
Those high home prices are kind of like Damocle’s sword aren’t they?
Great reference!
The stock markets (American and Canadian) don’t respond to fundamentals anymore. So Moody’s will have little or no impact on Canadian investors. It’s as if the stock markets in North America are now bullet proof because of QE infinity. Not sure this can last forever, especially in light of the current housing market correction.
Save for one (surprisingly) brief moment, stock markets have been overpriced for twenty years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_asset_price_bubble
in Japan, ‘forever’ lasted 1986-1991
Prophet Garth has already pronouced this rating downgrade to be a non-event. All must follow in his infinite wisdom….
:p
When your offices are on the 53rd floor of HogTown’s ScotiaPlaza, Space889… you really don’t want to have your elevator privileges withdrawn.
Space,
Beware of the false prophets.
http://www.chpc.biz/2/post/2013/01/house-price-to-income-ratios.html