Tag Archives: Foreign buyers

“I know at least 20 people who bought in the last 3 years and none of them are wealthy foreigners.”

Local speculators and massive amounts of debt have fueled this bubble. Foreign buyers have been relatively minor participants, but the story of foreign buyers has helped spur on locals. -vreaa

Anonymous at vancouvercondo.info 26 May 2010 9:20 pm

“I know at least 20 people who bought in the last 3 years and none of them are wealthy foreigners. They’re mostly Caucasians who’ve lived here for 10 to 50 years and most don’t even earn as much as I do, they just seem ok with taking on ridiculous debt levels. Hey, here’s a concept – maybe house prices are high because locals are overpaying with cheap money at record low interest rates. Maybe they believe all the fairytales: wealthy outsiders, drug money, etc. Maybe that’s why debt levels are at record highs?”

“I really get tired of the comments about rich Chinese coming over and running up our real estate prices. My wife’s parents, typical middle-to-upper class Chinese living in Beijing, own two apartments with no mortgages, worth around 1.4 Million RMB, which converts to $219,000 CDN – not even enough to buy a one bedroom condo in Vancouver.”

Informed at vancouvercondo.info 26 May 2010 12:40 pm

“I really get tired of the comments about rich Chinese coming over and running up our real estate prices. I don’t deny that there are some very rich Chinese (and Korean, Japanese, Filipino, Thai, Malays, etc) who have bought real estate in Vancouver, but please do some research before painting a whole ethnic group with a single brush. My wife’s parents are typical middle-to-upper class Chinese living in Beijing. They own two apartments with no mortgages – one they live in, and one my wife’s grandma lives in. If they sold both apartments, they would make around 1.4 Million RMB, which is a hell of a lot of money in China. But if they brought that over to Canada, that converts to $219,000 CDN – not even enough to buy a one bedroom condo in Vancouver. Keep in mind this is pretty much their entire net worth. So while there may be some extraordinarily rich Chinese bringing tons of cash over to Vancouver, the majority of immigrants have no more money in the bank than the average Canadian. It just bothers me when uninformed Canadians assume somehow that all these Chinese immigrants are obscenely wealthy.”

“I am Canadian and my wife is British. I lived in Britain from 1997, until we returned to Vancouver in 2009. Despite the fact that we love it here, career-wise and economically it has been a disaster. No one I know is buying a house or even thinking about it – that’s for the crazy locals.”

northeast canuck at greaterfool.ca 22 May 2010 10:08 am

“I am Canadian and my wife is British. I lived in Britain from 1997 – 2009 (the whole of my adult life and professional career). Never intended to stay so long, and we tried to come back to Canada for many years but there was always something in the way – usually the job situation. But, last summer we did it anyway. Despite the fact that we love it here, I think career-wise and economically it has been a disaster. I hate to admit that but it is true. We know quite a few expats who moved here around the same time – all professional with loads of experience and had highly paid, sometimes prestigious jobs in the UK, and all with lots of pounds in UK banks. No one is currently working in their chosen profession, all are either seriously underemployed and unemployed. Myself – I have been able to find work – in Japan. We have all found that Canadian companies are seriously reluctant to hire anyone with experience that is not Canadian. They won’t admit it, of course, and many probably don’t even realise they are doing it, but if you don’t fit the standard cookie-cutter job applicant mold here, you are going to struggle. We are all watching our life savings vanish before our eyes as the pound gets more and more feeble by the day.

Vancouver is a beautiful place, and wonderful to live in if you have lots of cash. Just make sure you have that cash in dollars, and a job arranged before you come.

Immigrants want to come here. But we’re not going to stay. Unlike many locals we are able to leave whenever we want and we will not accept a life of stacking shelves or driving a taxi. Oh, and no one I know is buying a house or even thinking about it – that’s for the crazy locals. I just hope that house prices crash faster than the pound.”

“My fiancé and I want to move from Europe to Vancouver at the end of the year and then buy a home there at the end of 2011 or 2012. It will depend on house prices and the strength of the pound as we’ll be selling a townhome in London to buy in Vancouver and are praying we can do it without a mortgage.”

This exchange between Garth Turner and a prospective Vancouverite contains two embedded anecdotes, and an opinion [greaterfool.ca, 22 May 2010] –

e-mailer: “My fiancé and I want to move from Europe to Vancouver at the end of the year and then buy a home there at the end of 2011 or 2012. It will depend on house prices and the strength of the pound as we’ll be selling a townhome in London to buy in Vancouver and are praying we can do it without a mortgage. What do you think the pound’s chances of returning to pre-2008 levels against the dollar in 2011 or 2012? In the meantime, my brother and his wife recently insisted on buying a house in Vancouver instead of renting and I hope they don’t lose their shirts. They both earn well but have student loans and other debt. I pointed out your blog to my brother but he said “That could never happen in Vancouver”. Hmm, do I hope he’s right?”

Garth Turner: “I’d suggest you move from Europe to, say, anywhere else in Canada. Wait for the Lower Mainland to impode, then consider buying. Hang out in Windsor or Sydney for a year or two, where you can live in a mansion for the price of a 475-square-foot concrete box dangling over Robson Street. You might like being in a place where people actually have a life and don’t talk about their houses all the time.”

A Realtor’s Review – “And there is the problem. This Olympic Village, Millennium Water, whatever you want to call it, is completely unaffordable.”

https://i0.wp.com/www.vancouversun.com/news/1636115.bin

This excerpted from an article by local realtor Will Wertheim at agentwill.com 17 May 2010 2:51 pm

“Today I attended a Realtor review of the Millennium Water development.” … “Mr. Bob Rennie, the King of All Condos, spoke to the crowd. Those who expected a rousing and uplifting speech would be shocked by what he said. It was far more somber, realistic, and tempered with hope rather than wishes.” …  “After the speech we went in groups of twenty to visit the showhomes. … You have a group of realtors, people who sell for a living, people who know their product, and the reactions you get from them will pretty much determine the results. We started in the lowest priced home which was $595k for just about 600 square feet. No view. Reaction? Astonishment at the price. We moved on to another and another. Prices being bandied about were up to 1.X million. Reaction? Astonishment at the gall. We moved into a 2.1m unit and at over $1400/sq.ft. the reaction became muted. It was an impressive suite. We get into the Erickson designed buildings and the prices were $2.Xm and just under $4m, I think. The reaction was much more appreciative. The suites were large and well designed. The views were fantastic and the prices were reflective of the quality and the location. And there is the problem. This Olympic Village, Millennium Water, whatever you want to call it, is completely unaffordable.”

[Note that Will Wertheim finds this development overpriced in terms of the current market, which many of us believe is itself already very, very overpriced. -vreaa]

Field Report From ‘Millennium Water’ – “Vancouver’s Ground Zero For Irrational Exuberance” – “So why, in your opinion, does this place come at a $700,000 premium?”

https://i0.wp.com/www.west-vancouverrealestate.com/WestVancouver-images/Millennium-Water-Condos.jpg

crashcow at vancouvercondo.info 15 May 2010 6:13 pm

“With the weather so nice today, I decided to checkout my first open house in a long time to get a feel for what’s happening in the trenches. And not just any open house, and entire open village. Little did I know how much of a treat it would end up being. On the way to Millenium Water, I passed by an abnormal quantity of For Sale signs. I kept asking myself how Rennie is going to pull off a 474 condo sale when inventory is exploding and sales are faltering. But soon after I walked into the gates of the Olympic Village, I knew I had stepped into a dream world of magic.

If Vancouver ever had a ground zero for Irrational Exuberance, Millennium Water is it. And if Bob Rennie is ever the King of anything, it’s hype. The man has carefully orchestrated a circus of clowns, bands, tents, treasure hunts and euphoria. When bands are cheering on lined up speculators and the King himself is handing everyone cookies, what is being witnessed is the last “hurrah” of a heavily inflated market. I lined up to view a condo and couldn’t help but overhearing what the herd was chanting. One of my favourites was, “I don’t know if I like this area, but I love the wave pattern on the wall.”

I followed the crowd into a staged 1 bed, 2-den condo at slightly over 1,000 sq. feet. I overheard some lady asking an agent the price and he replied with a straight face: “One-point-three-million.” The lady’s jaw dropped, she shook her head, and moved on. I couldn’t contain myself and had to keep the conversation going.

– Me: “The miracles of record low interest rates. So that’s roughly $1,200 per sq. ft?”
– Agent: “Yes, but I’m also selling units down the street for $500 per sq. ft”
– Me: “So why, in your opinion, does this place come at a $700,000 premium?”
– Agent: “It’s an opportunity to be a part of this famous community and the proximity to the water.”
– Me: “Not only are you asking for an outrageous premium, you’re doing it at a time when there are over 18,000 units on the market, CHMC rules are tightening and mortgage rates are climbing.”
– Agent: “You should then really consider the units we have listed down the street.”

So I followed the yellow brick road down the street and into another Rennie building called “The Maynard’s Block.” And sure enough, studios were priced at half a million. Buy now, or be priced out forever. “

“I travel to Hong Kong a fair bit and whenever there is a corruption case in the news I almost reflexively look for a Vancouver real estate angle.”

Impossible to know how much these buyers have contributed to the bubble. All the stories confirm is that at least a few RE sales over the years have been related to ill gotten gains. -vreaa

chip at vancouvercondo.info 13 May 2010 11:41 pm “I travel to Hong Kong a fair bit and whenever there is a corruption case in the news I almost reflexively look for a Vancouver real estate angle. These are some I remember from the last few years:

1) Corrupt cop: “A covert police study obtained by The Asian Pacific Post shows that Hon and his family had bought at least 11 residential and commercial properties and established a dozen companies in Vancouver, including a restaurant on Robson Street.” [6 Feb 2008]

2) Corrupt banker: “Gao Shan has been alleged by China for embezzling $150m from a Bank of China’s small branch in Heilongjiang, where he was the branch manager. Apart from Gao, China believes his accomplice Li Dongzhe (李東哲) also lives in Vancouver. A national arrest warrant was issued against Gao in 2005. However, there was no “Red Notice” issued by the Interpol against Gao.” [11 Apr 2007]

3) More corrupt bankers: “Two Chinese nationals with connections to B.C. are on trial in Nevada this week, accused of bilking the Bank of China of $400 million and blowing it on everything from lavish Las Vegas gambling trips to houses in Richmond. … But U.S. prosecutors allege the trio also stashed some of their ill-gotten gains in Metro Vancouver real estate, specifically three $1-million homes on Udy Road and Mang Road in Richmond.”

“A real estate agent has told me that, thanks to unscrupulous mortgage brokers, falsifying documents in mortgage applications has become rampant in Vancouver.”

If this has indeed been happening, it’d be yet another mechanism by which higher prices begat higher prices, and another reason that, once this lumbering beast of a market turns, it could fall harder than any of us expect. -vreaa

From an article by Steffan Ileman, examiner.com 8 May 2010 5:31 pm

“A real estate agent that wishes to remain anonymous has told me that, thanks to unscrupulous mortgage brokers, falsifying documents in mortgage applications has become rampant in Vancouver. The agent says this is how some local and foreign buyers that want to get in on Vancouver’s real estate boom extend their buying power. The same assets, for instance, could be recycled and used by a number of different parties to support  mortgage applications, and it’s especially easy to forge documentation from foreign sources. With HST and rising interest rates it will be more expensive than ever to own or maintain property in British Columbia, and the question is if low income home owners can trigger a bust in BC’s mortgage bubble.”

“It is not just the Chinese doing the speculative buying, I know of Whites, Indians, Filipinos, Koreans and other races doing the same thing. Flipping houses using borrowed money and living a materialistic life with fancy cars, bags etc.”

We agree with this poster’s sentiments; the bubble has not been inflated by any particular ethnic group. Members of each and every Vancouver population group have been participating. Everybody’s hustling for a buck and a dime: It’s human nature that does it, not any particular cultural effect. We also agree that “it is just a question of how soon and how fast” this all ends. It’s a pity that the city is losing another sensible soul. -vreaa

LY at vancouvercondo.info 29 Apr 2010 10:59 am

“I understand the frustration of some bears seeing housing prices go up due to massive speculative buying by Chinese. But it is not just the Chinese doing that. I know of whites, Indians, filipinos, Koreans and other races doing the same thing, flipping houses using borrowed money and living a materialistic life with fancy cars, bags etc. Anyway, their flipping days are numbered especially here in Vancouver. It is just a question of how soon and how fast.
As for me, I am moving to Toronto for good this year where I can buy an almost new detached/semi-detached house in Markham or Richmond Hill for the price of a small 1200 sq ft townhouse in Burnaby or Richmond. No reason to stay in overpriced Vancouver.”

China’s RE Trading Volume Collapses – “Recent mortgage restrictions may be having an effect after all.”

China’s RE and stock markets have some direct effects on Vancouver RE in that a small number of local sales are to wealthy foreign investors from China. More important, however, is the psychological link between the two markets. Many Vancouver locals believe that our market is buoyed by China, and thus speculate on local property based on that premise. For the latter reason, this story is particularly important. It comes at the same time as ballooning inventory in Vancouver, and mortgage debt that is growing more expensive by the week. More on the Vancouver-China relationship HERE. -vreaa

China Skyscraper Village

From businessinsider.com 27 Apr 2010

“China’s property transaction volume collapsed last week. Property trading volume went down 64 percent last week from a week earlier in Shenzhen, down 45 percent in Beijing, down 38 percent in Shanghai, and down 2 percent in Guangzhou. In China’s 35 main cities where housing market data was monitored by the newspaper [China Daily], 21 saw their trading volume go down last week, with the figure in Hangzhou going down 73 percent.

China’s recent mortgage restrictions may be having an effect after all. Obviously this is just a week’s worth of data, but if this weekly data turns into a longer-term trend, one has to imagine it could be bad news for prices.”

“He readily admits they will be just scraping by in order to make the mortgage payments, with a mortgage-helper suite in the basement. The suite is currently unfinished, and they exhausted all of their savings on the down payment.”

oneangryslav2 at vancouvercondo.info 16 Apr 2010 1:49 pm

“I can afford to buy very much, thank you. I have chosen not to because renting provides much better value for my money. And it’s not even close.

I have two colleagues–let’s call them Mr. Bull and Mr. Bear.

Mr. Bear has about $200,000 that he could put toward a down payment on a house in Vancouver. He has chosen not to because he also understands economic fundamentals.

Mr. Bull, on the other hand, about two months ago was able to come up with a 5% down payment on an admittedly nice place in east Vancouver. He readily admits that he and his wife will be just scraping by in order to make the mortgage payments, with a mortgage-helper suite in the basement. The suite is currently unfinished, and they exhausted all of their savings on the down payment. They are recent arrivals from the United States–Washington, DC area–and had hoped to fund the completion\renovation of the basement suite via the differential in the exchange rate between the US and Canadian dollar as the funds. Big mistake; the loonie and the greenback are now at par. So, they’re now scrambling to get a second mortgage. They take possession on May 1st.

But I guess they’re now home owners, and Mr. Bear and I–who are lowly renters–are just losers. I can afford to wait until prices make sense. If they don’t, then I’ll never purchase real estate in Vancouver. Big deal.”

Observations and Opinion of a West Coast Woman – “The result is that many of the people born and raised here are now leaving Vancouver since affordable housing for families is quickly disappearing.”

This poster expresses opinions that are representative of those held by a significant subgroup of Westcoasters. It’s hard to know exactly what percentage of the market is being driven by the kinds of sales she describes. -vreaa

West Coast Woman at greaterfool.ca 9 Apr 2010 10:28 pm

“Just today I heard the “money expert” for CKNW Radio in Vancouver (Michael Levy) state that Vancouver’s “red hot market” will NOT be affected by the upcoming increases in interest rates. He has also continually stated that Vancouver does NOT have a housing bubble. I just shake my head every time I hear him say these things. The 1950’s houses in my ordinary middle class neighbourhood now sell for $1.8 to $2.1 Million. In 2002-2003, they were selling for $500 – $600,000. For the most part, it’s developers buying the older homes, ripping them down and replacing them with 4000 – 5000 sq. ft. monster homes: Asking price $3.3 – $4.0 Million. These new houses are completely unaffordable for almost everyone who actually works here, so they are usually bought by Chinese immigrants (or is it “visitors”) who park their wives and children here while they work where they can make money and pay no taxes – in China. Meanwhile, we pay through our taxes for their children’s free Canadian education and medical – only so that they can all pack up and leave once the children have finished school, since the children find they can make much more money there than here. The net result is that many of the people born and raised here are now leaving Vancouver since affordable housing for families is quickly disappearing. And since every piece of land is now so “valuable” it has to be used for developer-driven expensive miniature condo housing (instead of parks, public spaces or commercial space), many businesses are also leaving the City. How anyone can look at what is happening in Vancouver and claim it isn’t in a housing bubble and that this “red hot market” is not driven by low interest rates is beyond me.”

CBC TV News – $1M Milestone – “What we’re seeing now, is people are moving typically in three- or four-hundred thousand dollar chunks up the property ladder.”

From CBC News, 7 Apr 2010

“For the first time, the average price of a Vancouver home has topped $1 Million.”

.

“It’s got a dream home price-tag, but this old-timer is definitely not the home you’d dream of. The asking price … Just over One Million Dollars.”

.

“That’s what we’re seeing now, is people are moving typically in three- or four-hundred thousand dollar chunks up the property ladder, over time.”

.

“Most of my clients are very wealthy.. they are new immigrants in the investor category.. so they are buying multi-million house on westside of Vancouver.”

.

Larry Yatkowsky says he doesn’t believe anyone who predicts it’s got to end soon with a double-digit crash. “It’s not going to go there.. I have no reason to believe it would drop anywhere near that.” Higher interest rates may cool things off a bit, but he says don’t expect too much of a fall back from that million dollar milestone.

Karl Denninger’s Opinion – “I’m willing to bet that in Vancouver homes are overvalued by a factor of five – or more. I can’t tell you when it will blow up, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that it will.”

Readers who follow the financial markets will likely know of Karl Denninger’s widely read blog ‘The Market Ticker’. Denninger today [8 Apr 2010] saw fit to step up and make comments about Canada’s housing boom, and his prediction is even more severe than anything we Vancouver bears foresee. -vreaa

“The latest median household income I can find for Canada is closer to $53,000 – or about half of what it should be [to support these housing prices].  That is, homes in Canada – on the whole – are selling for double reasonable “fair values.” I’m willing to bet that in Vancouver they’re overvalued by a factor of five – or more. I can’t tell you when it will blow up, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that it will.”

“A family in China intends to move to Vancouver. How are they planning to pay for a house there? By speculating on local real estate that rises 100% in 3 months.”

It is not clear in this anecdote whether the initial speculation would be done in Vancouver or China; but, regardless, the logic of making money speculating on RE appreciation in order to afford a house is worth documenting. -vreaa

Rich at greaterfool.ca 31 Mar 2010 10:22 am

“Interesting story I heard the other day: a family in China wants to move to Vancouver. How are they planning to pay for a house there? By speculating on local real estate that rises 100% in 3 months of course! Vancouver is different because in most other markets people don’t save up their down payment by speculating on real estate bubbles. Interesting how deep it goes…”

“Talking with mortgage brokers you’re seeing a lot of cash brought to the table. People buying those properties over a million dollars are plunking down 50%+ on them. Yes, there is a lot of rich foreign money coming in.”

Agent Will is Will Wertheim, a local realtor who posts the Vancouver RE statistics each week on his indispensable blog, agentwill.com. Recently he shared his current experiences in the market. Here’s Agent Will reporting from the trenches, 25 Mar 2010 8:45 am

Talking with mortgage brokers you’re seeing a lot of cash brought to the table. People buying those properties over a million dollars are plunking down 50%+ on them. Yes, there is a lot of rich foreign money coming in. I’m not selling those, though (not that I don’t want to). At the lower end we’re seeing buyers put down 10-15% on average and being pretty conservative with what they are buying. They may be approved for $500k but they’re looking at $400k or less as their max.

You look in the papers and media these past few months (at least what gets reposted on various sites in our community) and you see a lot of talk about prices, interest rates, and the future. I don’t understand that talk and I’ll tell you why. The Banks want to lend money. They only make money when they lend it. But they don’t just lend it to anyone… they only lend to those they deem credit worthy. They adjust the interest rate to reflect the risk. If the person is too risky then they won’t lend at all and the borrower has to go to a B or C lender which has far higher rates and will lend subsequently lower amounts of money. When media reports that “banks are worried” (and the reality for me is that I haven’t seen any worry) then I wonder if someone is saying a personal opinion or if the bank wants to reduce time spent on processing soon-to-be-rejected paperwork.

There’s also a lot of confusion about the HST and so many people think it applies to ALL housing. To every potential buyer I have had to explain (sometimes more than once) that it only will apply to wherever GST was applied (New housing over $525k, lawyers, realtor commissions paid by the seller, movers, materials for renos, contractors, strata management, utilities, etc.) and that means that purchasing a previously titled property will NOT pay HST.

[Results of a recent poll reported on in the G&M] jive exactly with what I’ve been seeing and saying here: “The survey showed six in 10 mortgage holders say they have taken advantage of current low rates to pay off more principal. It also revealed that 18 per cent of homeowners say they have made a lump sum payment on their mortgage and 16 per cent have doubled up payments to reduce the principal. ”

Again, 60% are paying off their mortgage faster, 18% have made lump sum payments, and 16% have doubled up payments. Question is if those 60% contain the 18% and the 16%, but still that is a very good number to see. And it only means that the other 40% have been going about their business and not taking advantage of the low interest rates. I wonder if maybe that is because the fixed rate still rules the vast majority of mortgages taken. Everyone I know on the variable is making extra payments or payments equal to what the fixed rate would be. Everyone.

Oh, and back to the “qualify for the higher fixed even if taking the variable”? I applaud that decision. But that’s just conservative lil’ ol Me. In my experience those who couldn’t really afford to buy are the least realistic, the biggest dreamers, and the greatest time wasters in my line of work. Yeah, they’re the ones watching the infomercials late at night.”

“The poor quality of housing construction and design is so obvious, you have to be blind not to notice it.”

Over at robchipman.net, a German man who lived in Vancouver for the last year, is about to return to Berlin, but first shares his impression of our city. Thanks to Híppos Purrós for alerting us to the anecdote.

Here’s German Guy at robchipman.net 29 Mar 2010 1:36 pm

“Vancouver was a great experience but all good things come to an end I guess. I enjoyed this blog [robchipman.net] and the quality of posts here and learned a lot about the dynamics of BC and RE. As this is my last post here,  I wish you all the best and thank you to all contributors.

Here are some short impressions of my stay here:

Things that I liked:

Canadians:  I met a lot of wonderful people whom I hope to see again here or in Germany and hopefully remain friends for a long time.

The nature The nature The nature: I enjoyed hiking the west coast trail, meeting a wild bear, driving BC Alaska highway, seeing BC wild horses, whale watching , paddling in the Brown lakes, Kootenay Rockies and the wonderful drive from Banff to Jasper,  boarding  BC ferries, skiing in Whistler and lake O’Hara in Yoho park, flying kites with my kids on desert beaches, boating with friends, but most importantly I enjoyed being alone with nature and walking into the roads barely traveled. Only in BC can you do this!

Things I didn’t like:

Health care: I know that many people here are proud of Canadian health system, but our experience was not so good.  After one year here, we still could not find a family doctor. One time my wife had to go to the hospital, she was turned back as there were no rooms available, despite her condition being serious and needing observation according to the doctor . Some long time readers here know my saga with my sinus problem, although not serious, I first went to a walk in clinic last November 2009 only to get an appointment with a specialist by January 28th which after 5 minutes consultation prescribed me an antibiotic Avelox (prohibited in Germany , it almost destroyed my stomach) and a CT scan for which I have appointment on Tuesday October 12th 2010!
Meanwhile I was back in Germany during spring break, saw the specialist and got the CT scan done within 2 weeks, it cost me 95euros.

Public School: We were generally disappointed with the schooling system, kids never came from school with home work nor was really any accountability asked from the teacher. From our understanding the school here seems to be a place where kids go to have fun and play rather than abide to rules, learn the culture of effort and systematic work ethic.
If it is difficult, don’t do it, seems to be the motto.  Fund raising is the main preoccupation of the schools and it is rather frustrating to see the kids come home weekly with fund raising schemes for all kind of things.

Business Opportunities: I could not really find any real business opportunities here rather than some unprofitable franchises in the hospitality industry despite ample pools of capital (2 to 10M). Most small businesses I have analysed have so little profit margins that your money will get a smaller return than leaving it on a 5 year government note.  I looked into farms, wineries, manufacturing, engineering, and hospitality. Business owners I talked to, have extremely exaggerated ideas of the worth of their businesses at least when you look at the cash flow they generate. There seems to be a complete disconnect between risk and reward.
The job market seems to be mainly for low paying  jobs but maybe that is because of the recession.  The best thing that can happen to young people finishing school here is to land a government job or work for a crown corporation or other big company close to the government in my opinion.

Real Estate: Although much has been said here regarding real estate,  I only like to emphasize that the poor quality of construction and design is so obvious, you have to be blind not to notice it.  I have seen brand new construction houses selling for 2+million being built “a la va vite” with poor construction materials, poor design and a mix of tasteless kitschy interior finish that leaves most real estate value on the land rather than building from my perspective.
I have no doubts that Vancouver will get a severe correction in RE prices but trying to time it is a futile exercise.  When the downturn comes it will be painful, and all the myths of the rich Chinese investor and marijuana grow ops (not that they are inexistent!) shall be exposed. People will discover that this bubble is driven mainly by hard working Canadians buying 2 to 3 houses or more on cheap debt subsidised by CHMC, in a desperate rush not to be left behind the neighbour, work colleague, friend etc. as prices keep going higher and higher until they don’t.

Good luck to all. GG”

China & Vancouver – “Is the coming crash in Vancouver RE going to coincide with the coming crash in Chinese RE?”

Here at VREAA we have always been of the opinion that the impact of wealthy Chinese buyers on Vancouver RE prices has been more indirect than direct. By that we mean that local speculators have been the major leveraged purchasers of our RE, and the ‘wealthy foreign buyer’ story has fueled these local gamblers. After all, foreign buyers are responsible for less than 5% of local purchases. However, having said that, we do know the anecdotes of wealthy Chinese families flying into Vancouver for the weekend, and, while here,  purchasing multi-million dollar condos or SFHs on the Westside. And we were impressed, very impressed actually, by the way in which the beginning of what-would-have-been-our-crash (the price drops in 2008) followed quite remarkably the topping and dropping of the Shanghai index. Of course, we were bailed out by the free money that followed the fall 2008 crash of world markets, and we’re now back at those 2008 highs. So, here is the question: Is the coming crash in Vancouver RE going to coincide with the coming crash in Chinese RE?  As grist for the mill, we give you two charts, and a generous excerpt from today’s ‘Barron’s’. “Surging credit has revived the animal spirits of Chinese investors”; “The property market looms so large in the Chinese economy”; “Housing has become a national obsession.” Ring any bells? -vreaa. [Update 28 Mar 2010 – For the record, this does not mean that we think that a RE crash in China is necessary for a serious collapse in  Vancouver RE prices to occur.]

…..  …..

From Alan Abelson’s column ‘Red Flags Over China’, Barron’s,  29 Mar 2010. He cites the work of one of our favourite bubble-ologists, Edward Chancellor, author of ‘Devil Take The Hindmost’

“We’ve come across a recent piece by Edward Chancellor entitled “China’s Red Flags”.  It contends “China today exhibits many of the characteristics of great speculative manias” over the past three centuries and then outlines those characteristics.

Such debacles usually start, Edward has found, with a compelling growth story. Another feature is a blind faith in the competence of the authorities. The ignominious list includes: excessive capital investment; a surge in corruption; easy money; fixed- currency regimes; rampant credit growth; moral hazard; precarious financial structures; and rapidly rising property prices powered by dodgy loans.

Of these, rapid credit growth is the most important leading indicator of financial instability, followed by an asset price bubble. Low interest rates and strong money growth play a significant part, too, in creating memorably bad outcomes. China, unhappily, has its share of these dubious qualities as well as being inflicted by a huge speculative mania.

Edward points out that “forecasts for urbanization and economic growth make for a compelling Wall Street pitch.” But he cautions that like the extravagant expectations for Internet growth during the dot-com mania, investors seem to be swallowing whole China’s growth forecasts. A good example is the reckoning that the urban population will increase some 350 million by 2025.

Edward suggests those numbers may not accurately reflect the present density of urban areas in China because a) many rural migrants to the cities tend not to be included in the official count as they lack residency status; and b) officials are rewarded on GDP growth per capita in their districts, so they have an obvious interest in understating how many people those districts contain.

He also notes that “Wall Street tends to downplay the darker aspects of the Chinese demographic story.” China’s population is set to decline in 2015 and the worker participation rate will peak this year. That will cause a sharp shrinkage in the number of people who migrate to the cities and supply China with its seemingly inexhaustible reservoir of cheap labor, key to its spectacular export success.

In recent years, no secret, Beijing has built up a vast treasury of foreign reserves of some $2.4 trillion. But Edward believes it’s a mistake to think that China’s gargantuan foreign-exchange reserves render its economy invincible. “These reserves,” he acknowledges, “can be used to buy foreign assets, pay for imports or defend a currency under attack.” But they aren’t especially effective in wrestling with the problems that follow, say, the collapse of an asset-price bubble, such as a broken banking system or a legacy of bad investments.

And, on that score, he quotes approvingly the observation in a recent book on China that “the only two countries which have previously accumulated such large foreign-exchange reserves relative to global GDP were the U.S. in 1929 and Japan in 1989.”

While surging credit has “revived the animal spirits of Chinese investors” and hugely whetted their appetites for all manner of stocks, including initial public offerings, quick trades and other classic signs of speculative euphoria, the real action has been in “China’s overheating property market.” And a goodly number of Edward’s red flags are “fluttering around” over-stretched real-estate valuations, rampant speculation and frenzied new construction. Housing, he says, “has become a national obsession.”

Pinpointing when the real-estate bubble will burst is a bit tricky, Edward concedes, in part because China is “not a pure market economy. State-owned enterprises can be called upon to prop up markets. Losses may be concealed or shuffled around like a shell game…Such measures, however, won’t cure China’s problems. They only delay the denouement.”

And he cautions that “just because the timing of any future crisis is imponderable, doesn’t mean the risk posed by the real- estate bubble should be ignored.” All the more so because the property market looms so large in the Chinese economy and financial system. Real-estate investment accounts for roughly 12% of GDP. Construction is the main source of demand for much of China’s heavy industry. Real-estate is gobbling up 20% of new bank loans.

China, Edward muses, “has become a field of dreams, a build-and-they-will-come economy.” He predicts that were the economy to slow below Beijing’s 8% growth target, “bad things are likely to happen.” Much of the new infrastructure will turn out to be otiose; excess capacity would linger in many industries; real estate would take a bath, and the banking system would be swamped by a wave of nonperforming loans.

His morose conclusion: “Investors who are immersed in the China Dream ignore this scenario. When the China juggernaut eventually stalls, they face a rude awakening.”

“A realtor was putting the hard sell to a couple regarding a Vancouver condo. As they were getting ready to leave, the couple asked him if he was going to pay for breakfast. He said yes. The lady then asked for a latte to go.”

This from Greenhorn at RE Talks 25 Mar 2010 10:04 am

“At breakfast this morning, I could not help but listen to the conversation at the table next to me. It was between a Middle-eastern couple and a Middle-eastern realtor. The realtor was putting the hard sell to the couple regarding a Vancouver condo. He was advising that prices will continue to go up. He mentioned that if they furnished the condo, they would triple the rent, easily. He said “This is the last prime condo building in Yale Town”. He asked them how long they would be in town for, and they said 2 weeks. I heard him advise the couple to buy the property with a line of credit because the interest rate would be lower and it would be interest only, so a lower monthly payment. They then told the realtor they would think about it, and had to go. As they were getting ready to leave, the couple asked the realtor if he was going to pay for breakfast and he said yes. The lady then asked for a latte to go. Classic!”

Whistler – “The owner told me their real estate agent just said 30 similar properties had just come on the market.”

Ulsterman at vancouvercondo.info 22 Mar 2010 11:58 pm

“Just had a friend in town from the UK who would love to live here. He watched the Olympics, loves the place, but when he heard about house prices he just laughed and laughed. I rented a townhouse for him in Whistler which has been on sale since July. When I returned the keys, the owner told me their real estate agent just said 30 similar properties had just come on the market. They said if I wanted to rent again, feel free, because they didn’t imagine they’d sell it anytime soon.”

Realtors To Owner – “We’re getting A LOT of requests for mid priced listings ($450,000-$550,000). A very large number of those requests are coming from folks south of the border, mostly from California and New York, who see Vancouver as well priced.”

American investors buying Vancouver RE in current market conditions are buying high priced RE in a high priced currency, so they absolutely have to be momentum investors, believing that assets which have run up will only run up further. This is the opposite of techniques used by value and contrarian investors, who look to purchase undervalued assets. For momentum investing to work, the investor has to be nimble, and able to sell if the market turns and begins to head down. This is the equivalent of using a ‘trailing stop’. It can work in the stock market, where one can sell within seconds of making a few keystokes. In RE, however, where selling can take days, weeks or even months, and markets can become very illiquid, momentum investors can be left high and dry. This anecdote is also interesting because it comes at the same time as other stories of Canadian investors taking advantage of the US RE pullback and the strong loonie to buy US properties. So these US investors really would be swimming against the stream. -vreaa

raventalk at RE Talks 18 Mar 2010 9:26 am

“I’ve been deluged in the last two weeks by realtor mail asking me to list my properties. I usually see two or three listing flyers a month – to date this month I’ve received over twenty mailings. Almost all of my properties are on Seymour, so I got to wondering if properties along this corridor are in greater demand than other properties – which I doubted. I was just trying to understand why realtors are so motivated to list new properties at this point, more than any other time I can recall.  So…I spoke to the two realtors I actually hang out with, play rugby with actually, both of them are downtown based, concentrate on lofts. Both of them had basically the same response – We’re getting A LOT of requests for mid priced listings ($450,000-$550,000) and need to build some inventory in that range. A very large number of those requests are coming from folks south of the border, mostly from California and New York, who see Vancouver as well priced. Can’t say I agree (prices seem high to me), but if I’m just one owner receiving these kind of inquiries, could the ongoing increase in listing numbers somehow be related to realtors rush/push for listings?”

“I was one of the unlucky 15 million people born into the city that ranks among the bottom 10 in the annual most-livable cities in the world survey. Then, quite magically, later in my life, I find myself among the lucky couple of million that live in the metropolitan region that is consistently on the top of that same list.”

A discussion regarding VREAA at RE Talks led to me observing that there were remarkably few personal stories  from Vancouver RE bulls on the internet. In response, arpakdel (RE Talks, 16 Mar 2010, 6:44 pm) kindly shared their story, which is archived here verbatim. It is an impassioned argument that demand for Vancouver is and will remain overwhelming. -vreaa

“Allright, here is a long one for your archives. It’s a bit of a story – my story, but it may just be right balance you need after posting the bit from that bitter woman that calls Vancouver a “second-rate backwater”:

I think the forces of the universe decided to first curse me and then to bless me. You see, because I was one of the unlucky 15 million people that was born into the city that ranks among the bottom 10 in the annual most-livable cities in the world survey. But then quite magically sometime later in my life, I find myself among the lucky couple of million that live in the metropolitan region that is consistently on the top of that same list – and funny enough, that city where I came from, although smaller in size than Vancouver, is already half the population of Canada.

But I would have settled for less than that. Hell, if I was put in just about any city in this mind-boggling massive country, I would have thanked the heavens and sacrificed the 30 goats I had pledged anyways.

And that may be my problem: I know what a shitty place to live in means first hand, and I shake my head when people living here just don’t get it. They can’t understand why a place like Vancouver will always be covetted by both insiders and outsiders. They don’t get that in our ever shrinking world, that means the demand for it will always be insatiable. For every one person that complains it rains too much here, I can find you 15 million of my country men that will smack in the face for not appreciating what it’s fresh air does to the body and soul. For everyone that will protest the politics of this blissfully free country, I will find you 15 million of my country men that will laugh and scorn how petty it is, because they grew up under the arbiterary whim of some beared ayotallah, and the boot of basij in their face. And for every one person that complains about the high-prices here and goes on and on about affordability and rental value analysis, the same 15 million will tell you the streets of their capital are littered with brilliant young minds with PhD’s in arm who can’t find jobs to pay half their rents and instead roam the streets each evening like mindless zombies, each day suicide looking more and more like a good vacation – and that is nothing to say of the 99% of the rest of young people who were not enough academic prodigies to even be able to get a seat in the extremely competetive universities or colleges.

But forget about that 15 million. The country is home to 70 million people. A small percent of that country is rich enough to buy their way into Canada. And what do you think they will do? They will buy homes. They will buy homes for themselves. And they will buy homes for their children. The other small percent will fight their way to Canada with teeth and nails…. and what will they do? Yes, they will buy homes, and they will buy them at market value. Your ROI, rental-value, forgone-oppurtunity analysis be fu**kin damned.

But forget about the country of 70 million people. Can you guess how many of the 4 billion in asia will want to live in a place like Vancouver? By 2020 the Vancouver region’s population is estimate to grow to 3 million. Some will move to Coquitlam, some will move to Surrey. They are coming, and they are not listening to your outcries that the prices for those “armpit sides of the city” are stupid stupid and that they are wrong for buying. While you scream, they will buy.

And you know what that means for you my dear friend? it will means increased demand everywhere.

Where people want to live and play, demand for real estate will always be there. And Vancouver is as prime as it gets. The formula that makes amazing is simple: take a country blessed with political freedom and economic riches, make a beautiful urban oasis along side a rugged coastal wonder, sprinkle it with mild weather, and voila. You have hit gold. Gold baby gold.”

“I’m on the front lines and I see some stupid people, doing stupid things out there, but I saw that years ago as well, and they’ve all made big money in this game. I deal with Europeans, Asians, and Americans buying here, and boy they are bringing some serious wealth with them.”

Couver…. at greaterfool.ca 16 Mar 2010 3:09 am

“I’m a realtor from Vancouver, stop throwing things at the screen and give me a sec. I’m university educated in Urban Land, I’ve spent my life surrounded by some of the who’s who of the real estate world in this city, and I don’t always buy into the BS that some of my colleagues and other “experts” spout off about, ie the Olympics and all that crap. I tend to look at the big picture and try to figure out what that means to my market.Right now, I think that things in this city are a little nuts, but not as nuts as [some] might think it is. I’m on the front lines and I see some stupid people, doing stupid things out there, but I saw that years ago as well, and they’ve all made big money in this game. I deal with Europeans, Asians, and Americans buying here, and boy they are bringing some serious wealth with them. I see smart money getting out right now, but I also see smart money getting in. Some have said that it’s a bit of the Monaco effect, but I only see that in a very small area of Downtown and the Westside. There is no doubt that this latest run has been caused by Flaherty’s lax mortgage rules and poor monetary policies (rates), but the problem with Vancouver is, lots of demand and the lack of supply. Our land locked city is bursting at the seams with very little room to grow. I’m under no illusion that things could drop a good deal here, but I just don’t think that it’s going to be as bad as Garth [Turner] thinks it is. At the end of the day, I’m of the belief that it’s going to land somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.”

“It’s Culturally Different This Time” – The ‘Cultural Difference’ Bull Argument for Vancouver RE

‘Vancouver Rocks’, a poster who frequents the greaterfool.ca site, has previously been featured here as a proponent of the ‘overwhelming demand’ bullish argument for Vancouver RE. Here he presents the argument that culturally determined behaviours make Vancouver RE different this time. We at VREAA don’t buy this argument (either), but we archive it here for posterity. With an appended succinct refutation by ‘junius’. -vreaa

Vancouver Rocks at greaterfool.ca 12 Mar 2010 6:09 pm

“Vancouver has the highest percentage of young adults by government definitions (18-30) living at home in Canada. Much of this is cultural, where members in certain communities (Asian, East Indian just like Greeks and Italians in Toronto) do not leave home until they are married as renting is a huge waste of money in their eyes. When you leave at home for a couple years, it is very easy to accumulate a large DP when you have no expenses (someone making 30k living at home is much better off than someone making 60K having to rent). Factor in that 40% of the city is made up of primarily two ethnic minorities, and that people are getting married later, you have a situation where FTBS come to the table with very very large DPS that more than offset the high cost of houses. The do not need massive salaries to afford their homes…

Many FTBs also have large DPs from “unconventional” living arrangements by “traditional” living standards. In many communities, houses are bought by groups of immigrants who live 3-4 families to a house. Once that house is paid off, they facilitate migration of other relatives to purchase the next home, and repeat the process. When you have 3 extended families living together, all of which are committed to paying off the house, “average 2 person family incomes” are meaningless. These types of living arrangements also are more absorptive of economic shocks, as they do not rely on a sole breadwinner.

It is not rocket science. Posters from other parts of the country fail to realize that cultural attitudes and practices play into the market, and that you cannot simply use deterministic economic models to assume a crash will happen. The era of leaving your nuclear family home when you are 18, renting for many years trying to save a DP, and buying a house when you are married and settled career wise is dead in this city. That era still exists in other parts of the country, but not in two key metro areas – Vancouver and Toronto. That is why there is some truth to the statement all RE is local, and why blanket statements of universal crash are coming are meaningless. Many of the experts fail to see this…if you live here then you would see this and you would adjust your expectations of an impending crash accordingly. Some Vancouverites will try to refute this, but they know that this is an accurate portrayal of the RE landscape.”

junius at greaterfool.ca 12 mar 2010 6:33 pm refutes

“These same factors exist in many other cities including US cities from New York to Miami to San Francisco and more affordable cities in Canada such as Montreal. They are not unique to Vancouver or Toronto and in no way support a continued affordability gap in the range that currently exists.”

“When I explained the Vancouver housing mania to them, my friend’s wife said “Oh that’s what we all thought too.”

Ulsterman at vancouvercondo.info 11 Mar 2010 12:20 am & 12:22 am

“A friend and his wife arrived today from Belfast, Northern Ireland. It was the bubbliest place in the UK over the past 10 years. Apparently the locals thought it was different in Belfast and fundamentals didn’t apply. It’s now off 40% from the peak. My friends bought their place for 93k in 03, at the peak houses on their street sold for 275k and they put their house on the market last June at 189k. I asked them today if they’d had any offers. No they said, not even one viewing. Now THAT’s a bear market. Since June they lowered the price in increments to 149k and still NOTHING. When I explained the Vancouver housing mania to them (We’re different; Offers 100k over asking; Real estate always goes up; etc) my friend’s wife said “Oh that’s what we all thought too.” BTW, they are on holiday, not emmigrating. With the collapse of their real estate holdings (2 houses) and the British peso, they have been well and truely priced out of the Vancouver market. They had considered moving as she has a Canadian passport.”

“I have noticed a very definite trend of Asians of Chinese descent moving back home. The big complaint from my soon-to-be ex-neighbours is that there are no business opportunities in Canada.”

This observation is noteworthy in that it is contrary to general opinion. -vreaa

old kitsie at vancouvercondo.info 2 Mar 2010 12:59 pm“I live in the Arbutus area of Vancouver, my kids were often the only non-Asian kids in their high school science classes. I have [now] noticed a very definite trend of Asians of Chinese descent moving back home. They are now citizens, with two passports, and no longer have a need to educate their children here. The big complaint I have heard from my soon-to-be ex-neighbours is that there are no business opportunities in Canada. China is the place to make money. There are many homes vacant in this neighbourhood and it appears to be an escalating trend. I do not see an influx of immigrants as in the past.”

Olympic Visitor, Foreign Buyer? Part 6: “I know of one condo sale to a couple from San Jose. I’m going to assume we’ll see a mini-wave of these kinds of purchases, but the effect will be minimal.”

raventalk at RE Talks 2 Mar 2010 9:17 am“Those of us living at 1155 Seymour were flooded with pre-Olympic requests to list our condos and I know of one sale to a couple from San Jose. I’m going to assume we’ll see a mini-wave of these kinds of purchases, but the effect will be minimal.”

Olympic Visitor, Foreign Buyer? Part 5: “Aspac Developments says it sold $31.8 million in high-end units to people visiting Vancouver for the two-week duration of the Games.”

One $22.3M sale, and five or six others averaging $1.5M. “Sold $31.8 Million in high-end units” sounds more impressive than “Sold seven units”.  Is this the beginning or end of something? -vreaa

This from ‘2010 visitors buy $32M in Vancouver real estate’ by Darcy Wintonyk, ctvbc.ca, 1 Mar 2010, 3:11 pm“Aspac Developments says it sold $31.8 million in high-end units to people visiting Vancouver for the two-week duration of the Games. The penthouse at Three Harbour Green alone, within spitting distance to the International Broadcast Centre and nestled on the shores of Coal Harbour, sold for $22.3 million. A spokesperson for the developer said the warm weather helped showcase Vancouver’s natural beauty and showcase it to the world.”

This pertinent comment from Anonymous at vancouvercondo.info 1 Mar 2010 at 5:12 pm – “Friends and fellow citizens, that article is bullshit. The suites downtown in Coal Harbour, and several at the Wesbrook at the University of British Columbia, were being advertised overseas to Asian buyers only….not olympic visitors. The wealthy asians that purchased these homes use these residences as secondary when they visit canada but many have their children living in them and attending university. How do I know this? My client was part of the team responsible for building the tower at UBC. He told me that not one single advertisement was pushed in north america.”

“I know tons of people who want to move to BC but when they look at a) the available jobs and b) house prices, they laugh and go back home.”

!(EconomicsDegree) at vancouvercondo.info 1 Mar 2010 8:24 am“I know tons of people who want to move to BC but when they look at a) the available jobs and b) house prices, they laugh and go back home.”

“A local realtor passes and says: “Every time those cameras click real estate goes up $100”

Eric at greaterfool.ca 27 Feb 2010 bemoans the fact that fine weather for part of the Olympic Games may have given visitors an artificially rosy view of Vancouver –

“Instead of 4°C and raining sideways, we got the once-in-five-years treat of a sunny, warm February. I was really hoping for the rain, really and truly, because anything else was bound to add to the silliness that is Vancouver real estate. So, there I am watching a week of stunning sunrises from the Cambie bridge, surrounded by hundreds of visitors at 6am, who flocked up the span with cameras in hand. A local realtor passes and says: “Every time those cameras click real estate goes up $100″. Sigh. March Madness is around the corner. … And THEN the bloody cherry trees started blooming.”

Update: Vancouver IS the best place on earth; Everybody WILL want to move here: “The gods are on our side when it comes to real estate. The Vancouver boom is not over. It is just starting.”

Vancouver did indeed look glorious, on cue, for at least part of the Olympic fortnight. This causes the following reassertion of the theory that overwhelming demand will drive our RE prices forever upwards. These foreign buyers would have to be oblivious to pricing levels as defined by fundamentals, and they certainly wouldn’t want to be in need of local jobs to support their RE habits. -vreaa

Vancouver Rocks at vancouvercondo.info 27 Feb 2010 1:32 pm

“The gods parted the skies and released unseen sunshine for 10 straight days rather than the usual rain and fog. And the cherry blossoms all came out. This despite the negative nellie bears that were wishing and hoping for terrible weather. Over a quarter million visitors were taken aback by the beauty, and many commented right on cue “Oh, everyone will want to move here.” Obviously, the gods are on our side when it comes to real estate. Looking forward to another 10% pop this Spring, which will make an increase of over 30% in the last year and a half. Hmmmmm….waiting for a 15% “correction” after a 30% increase took place is just a waste of time and rent….. The Vancouver boom is not over. It is just starting. All it will take is a couple of thousand visitors to buy, and the already low inventory will be eliminated. Sorry bears, but Vancouver will continue to go up and you will continue to be left behind…”

Olympic Visitor, Foreign Buyer? Part 4: “Those opening ceremonies – that should add $25 a square foot to what I can get at the village.”

The author of the article cited below was unsure as to whether Bob Rennie was really kidding or not with that statement. -vreaa

Excerpts from ‘Banking on the Games afterglow’, by Frances Bula, The Globe and Mail, 22 Feb 2010

“The reality is that many are hoping there’s an element of truth in Mr. Rennie’s humour. Among them are brothers Peter and Shahram Malek who run Millennium Developments and who pledged $70-million of their assets to keep the athletes village project going when their financing started to collapse at the beginning of the recession. Another group is the City of Vancouver, which is owed almost $200-million for the land and was forced to loan the Maleks $800-million for their construction refinancing. Both are depending on a healthy real-estate market to recoup the village’s $1-billion cost. It would be a relief if the reflected glory from the Olympics would make a difference once the athletes go home.”

“Certainly the village, after a year of rocky news coverage, has been basking in the Olympic glow. A recent New York Times Magazine essay on the Games by Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff was accompanied by a picture worthy of an architecture magazine. The site looked like a modernist marvel on the water. Television shots frequently highlight it. Media outlets report that athletes love it.”

“The problem with Millennium is their costs,” says Cameron McNeill, another major development marketer who points out that the village was built at the peak of prices for labour and materials. “Will the market bear the $1,100 a square foot they need? I think that’s stretching it. I think it’s going to be extremely difficult for them to recoup their costs.” Mr. McNeill, the head of MAC Marketing Solutions, is selling a building across the street from the village, the James. He’s pricing it in the $700-a-square-foot range. That’s the average price Mr. Rennie got for the first 250 village condos before the crash. It means the remaining 500 condos have to sell for much more on average for the project to break even.”

“We are a brand society and Vancouver doesn’t have a lot of legendary addresses,” Mr. Rennie says.

Olympic Visitor, Foreign Buyer? Part 3: MSNBC RE Coverage: “Warning: Don’t count on bargains because Vancouver’s home values have recovered and already are back at 2008’s peak levels.”

This from raventalk at RE Talks 22 Feb 2010 11:25 am“Watching the Olympics last night on CNBC and there was a ten minute feature on Vancouver real estate. The gist of it was Vancouver is a great bargain compared to other “world class cities.” This coming from a real estate agent from New York who is visiting the Olympics and now is looking at buying since “prices seem stable here (Vancouver.)” Also found this link on msnbc.com.”

‘Northern exposure’, by Jennifer Alsever, contributor, Business/RE section, msnbc.com, 21 Feb 2010“Are you becoming enamored with Vancouver’s Olympic glory? Or maybe you’d rather stroll down Robson Street for the closing ceremonies rather than watch it on TV. Here’s a look at what’s for sale in Canada’s third-largest city. Warning: Don’t count on bargains because Vancouver’s home values have recovered and already are back at 2008’s peak levels. All prices are in Canadian dollars.”

“My ex-pat relatives from California drove past a 4-plex in Kits that had a For Sale sign out front, and asked for the price. They thought it was pretty reasonable – until they realized it was for only one unit.”

Some Californian perspective on Vancouver RE prices. This is the kind of story that makes anecdote archives worthwhile. Thank you coco. – vreaa

This from coco at VREAA 22 Feb 2010 7:27 am

“I had ex-pat relatives visiting from California who told me that they were thinking of moving back here. We drove past a nice looking 4-plex in Kits that had a ‘For Sale’ sign out front and they asked me to look up the price for them. I did and they thought it was pretty reasonable – until they understood that it was for only one unit. (They thought the price was for the whole building). Needless to say, they are reassessing their idea.”

Olympic Visitor, Foreign Buyer? Part 2: “CBC spoke to a realtor who had four phone calls since the Games started. One party was American, interested in purchasing a property in Vancouver.”

Stories of visitors to the Olympics buying RE in Vancouver. Or not. -vreaa

pricedoutfornow at vancouvercondo.info 21 Feb 2010 11:24 pm“CBC radio reported today that realtors are bored, sitting at home, watching TV during the Olympics. Apparently international visitors are too busy enjoying the games to think of investing in real estate. Who woulda thought??? Though they did point out one realtor who had an amazing FOUR phone calls since the games started. This realtor revealed that one party was American, interested in purchasing a property in Vancouver. I bet the Americans slammed down the phone after hearing the price of condos in our fair city.”

Olympic Visitor, Foreign Buyer? Part 1: “I was talking to a Swedish flight attendant at the Irish House last night. She was considering buying a condo in downtown Vancouver.”

Vancouver is looking glorious again today. Despite this, we don’t think there are going to be many Olympic visitors who decide to become foreign buyers of Vancouver RE. Our prices are simply too preposterously high, and those who live in other cities will be more aware of that than locals. We are, however, interested in any evidence that may prove us wrong. So far, we’ve had to be satisfied with the following insubstantial anecdotal snippet. Please send your stories, if there are any. -vreaa

This from vantownsucks at vancouvercondo.info 19 Feb 2010 10:02 am“I was talking to a Swedish flight attendant at the Irish House last night and, I’m not kidding, she was considering buying a condo in downtown Vancouver. She said she loves Vancouver. I was shocked I must say.”

Putting the “Get Real!?” into ‘Real Estate’: 2218 sqft for $5,380,000 = $2,426 per sqft

We like a lot of the buildings that Arthur Erikson has designed, but we find it hard to imagine 2218 sq ft working THAT well. We’ll be watching the square-footage asking prices on this building through the next decade. -vreaa

https://i0.wp.com/img33.imageshack.us/img33/1492/erickson1sept2409p11606.jpg

MLS#V809514, # 603 1560 HOMER MEWS, Vancouver, BC   V6Z 0A6

2218 sqft, $5,380,000. Maintenance fees $955.21 monthly.

“Master piece by world renowned architect Arthur Erickson. Breathtaking waterfront view of False Creek, water & city. Unique design & luxurious interior can not be matched by any other building in the city. Features & amenities need to be view in person.”

Olympic Village Not Up To European Construction Standards – “The walls are as thin as curtains.”

Olympic visitors are puzzled. Those familiar with bricks and mortar find our construction practices odd. And some are labouring under the delusion that we have dry summers. -vreaa

‘Athletes and coaches slam Olympic Village accommodation’, Bild.com, 12 Feb 2010

Excerpts:
“Disgruntled athletes and coaches staying at the Olympic Village in Vancouver have hit out at what they say is shoddy accommodation and a lack of basic comforts.”
“The walls of the rooms are so thin that the athletes are struggling to fall asleep.”
“Ski jumping trainer Werner Schuster compared the Olympic Village with a boy scout camp.”
“The walls are as thin as curtains.”
“The Village is good for summer. But now in winter with this weather it’s a problem. The German team have especially bought heaters to dry their things which are always getting wet due to the relentless sleet.”

“My contact mentioned the average sale price of this realtor must be around ~500k for past year. Definitely not fitting the “rich china” profile.”

We know that locals have speculated on Vancouver RE while convincing themselves that Asian investors want to buy here, but we still aren’t really able to quantify the direct effect of Asian money coming into our RE bubble. -vreaa

From the Globe and Mail story ‘Chinese investors eye Canadian housing boom’, 14 Feb 2010 7:08 pm

“While Chinese residents have long looked to Canada as a site for their capital, and while they have been buying steadily in the Vancouver and Toronto real estate markets for years, the combination of a clampdown at home and a blazing hot market in this country is spurring even more interest.”

“The prospect of any sort of slowdown makes a pool of potential overseas buyers that much more attractive to [Canada’s] real estate industry.”

“To tap into the demand, Century 21 will unveil a new Chinese version of its website this week, the first major real estate company to do so in Canada. The site is the cornerstone of a strategy that will see the company increasingly marketing properties directly to consumers in mainland China. “Right now, our focus is on serving Chinese clients in Canada,” said Mr. Lawby, who is also president of Century 21 Asia Pacific. “However, a byproduct is that Canadian listings will be more visible to buyers from around the world … there’s always a need for a safe haven to place money and invest.” Vancouver agent William Nip estimates he sells 40 properties to Chinese nationals each year, a number that has increased every year since he started dealing in property 17 years ago. So far this year, most of his clients are looking to spend up to $2-million on premium properties.“The bubble in China is already very big, so the government is encouraging them to take their money and spend somewhere else,” said Mr. Nip, who works at Sutton Group West Coast Realty.”


gse36 on RE Talks 14 Feb 2010 6:09 pm commented on the above article –

“It would be really nice to quantify things though — rather than just speculation, buzz, and anecdotes. [I’ve seen data from] landcor, but I’m not sure how accurate that is (i.e. don’t know how the figures are collected, and whether this is reliable, because,  if it is, foreign ownership is minuscule. One of my realtor contacts works in William Nip’s (the realtor mentioned in the story) office. He insists that the guy sold ~25 TOTAL (i.e. mainland china + non mainland china) last year on mls. So if he has sold over 40 (as stated in article) to mainland china people, then he must be doing off-mls stuff, like presales (which doesn’t capture the west side, richmond, and burnaby houses which china people are supposedly buying). Also, my contact mentioned the avg sale price of his must be around ~500k for past year. Definitely not fitting of “rich china” profile. Anyhow, to try to substantiate this, I went to William Nip’s website. The info I was provided seems consistent with [the above] as he lists 54 past sales, and none of them are super $$$ (avg price does seem to be 450-550k). And the mls #’s date back to like early 2004’s. He only has 6 active listings (which are not sold), and most expensive residential is $1.09M.”

“Although he could afford any house, he now lives in a rented condo overlooking the ocean north of Victoria. His strategy is simple: Wait a year or two and buy a lot more house for a lot less money in a post-bubble world.”

This from Garth Turner, on his own blog, greaterfool.ca, 14 Feb 2010

“Sunday afternoon [14 Feb 2010] I sat on a leather couch in the Empress Hotel speaking with a millionaire exile from the US. The guy now lives in a rented condo overlooking the ocean north of Victoria because – although he could afford any house – “I’ve seen this movie before.” He laughed as he said, “I would never have imagined before I came here that Canadians could be stupid enough to make exactly the same mistakes Americans did five years ago. I tell ya, this is like watching an old, familiar train wreck.” His strategy is simple: Wait a year or two and buy a lot more house for a lot less money in a post-bubble world.”

“Overseas money is coming fast and furiously. I had 3 different groups of serious buyers from the UK at an open in North False Creek yesterday.”

This from thinktom at RE Talks 25 Jan 2010 10:38 am

“There are so many people coming to opens right now I believe the only thing that will kill this market is interest rates. I had 3 different grps from the UK at an open in North False Creek yesterday (yes, they said they were serious buyers). Also went to a multi-family 4 unit ‘open’ on W. 18th yesterday and there were about 8 grps waiting for the 2pm start time. And yes, overseas money is coming fast and furiously.”

“This is not about a real estate bubble. Let’s just admit that were all pissed off because people are landing in Vancouver and buying up our land. I say wake up to the global revolution! It’s happening right here and now.”

Regular readers of these pages know that we have a bearish opinion regarding the future direction of the Vancouver RE market. We also archive any eloquent accounts arguing for alternate outcomes. The most popular alternate argument, by far, is that of overwhelming and ongoing demand, especially foreign demand, for Vancouver RE. We’ve posted other versions of this argument previously. Here’s another one. -vreaa

Alan at greaterfool 6 Feb 2010 11:15 am writes –

“Possibly a voice of reason in all this madness of collapsing real estate prices…. First, it’s good to see so many naysayers and dire warnings of imminent RE crashes, especially in Vancouver. It’s a good sign that there’s no bubble. Most importantly, it would be great to see someone write about what’s really happening and why so many people are bothered about being priced out of the market. This phenomenon is in it’s most basic form, part of global re-organization of peoples and their ability to walk with their money to any country they wish to live. Vancouver when I was growing up in the 60’s to 80’s was still a small town. The only people that moved here in any great numbers to speak of, were Torontonians and a number of Brits and some of our dear friends from the Atlantic coast to work in our once flourishing lumber industry and other remnants of our past economy. Vancouver had it’s real estate cycles then as we do now but those cycles were locally driven. Today, we see people from not only China and India in great numbers, but new people from the former Soviet Union, eastern block countries, middle eastern populations and believe it or not, US citizens running from the US-Bush led debacle of the last ten years. Money has been streaming into Vancouver and it’s not being driven by our local economy. The RE market, while it appears to defy gravity, is being driven by money being moved from one country to another, namely Canada and Vancouver in particular. This has not just happened overnight, its been happening since 2000 in a significant manner. That’s why no one can understand who is buying at these prices, and why the average Vancouverite cannot afford the high prices. Plain and simple, Vancouverites are being displaced by those that have the wherewithall to pack up their families and move to Canada. All this whining is about the global competition we have when it comes to buying an affordable home in our own home town. This is not about a real estate bubble gone to the stratosphere, let’s just admit that were all pissed off because people are landing in Vancouver and buying up our land and because our wages are not going up to make these homes affordable, we’ve now taken on the role of being whiners and naysayers, when really we should all be just moving out to the far distant corners of land afffordabilty. This is what none of you want to admit is happening. Instead it’s about a housing bubble about to burst. I say wake up to the global revolution! It’s happening right here and now.”

Chinese RE Developer – “Prices are too high, Rent is too low. For us it makes no sense to hold property, so our strategy is to sell everything.”

Different market, same dynamic, correct conclusion. Fundamentals do matter. -vreaa

A discussion of Chinese RE at seekingalpha.com 30 Jan 2010 quotes Zhang Xin, the CEO of SOHO China, one of the best-known women in Chinese business, and one of the country’s leading property developers –

“We don’t really have a view on when it will end; [but] we do have a view that this is a bubble. Basically . . . our strategy is to sell everything we have. The real estate business should really be looking at rental yield; build a building and then lease it out with the rent giving a decent return. But, because of where China is with asset bubbles, people want to buy the assets regardless of whether they can be leased out or not. People just want to hold [property], even if it is empty. Now, if you look at the prices for the property being sold versus the rent you collect there is a real disconnect. Prices are too high, rent is too low, so if you hold property in order to get yield you are likely to get very little. For us it makes no sense to hold property, so our strategy is to sell everything. We see ourselves very much as a manufacturer. We buy land, we build, and then we sell. And the asset bubble has compelled us to be even more of a manufacturer . . . the strategy is to keep a lot of cash, to sell as fast as possible, and to turn around assets faster — even faster than before.”

“The very people who are crying about the increase in property taxes are the same people who had a part in generating the statistics for the appraiser to raise taxes in the first place.”

This from grumpy at greaterfool.ca 30 Jan 2010 at 6:15 pm

“I just got my property tax assessment. Its up by 21% over last year. This is hell of a way for the governments to engineer another tax grab eh? Don’t tell me that the BOC and Flaherty don’t know exactly what’s going on here. Several ‘New Canadian’ neighbours who are mortgaged to the hilt after of buying at the very top of the market (Vancouver) have asked me to help them appeal the assessments. I suspect that the reason is that they are now facing additional expenditures that they hadn’t calculated into their monthly budgets. Many of these people have no obvious source of income, so where does the money come from? I don’t ask. Nor do a majority speak a word of English, or work. But it is becoming obvious they are not paying cash, and are only ‘in the game’ on spec, with huge mortgages that eat their lunches for them every day, and it’s getting uncomfortable to be so hungry. As an ex-analyst I know how the appraisal process works, and I know I would be wasting my time appealing the assessments. The very people who are crying about the increase in taxes are the same people who had a part in generating the statistics for the appraiser in the first place. I suspect they have only purchased these properties because of the free money offered to people with no credit record and no job, to wait for a big payoff before selling. If I am right the bubble is about to burst based on unaffordable costs of ownership finally becoming a factor for the many who have ‘no skin in the game’.”

A Gentle Bull: “Maybe I’m just trying to reassure myself that it’s OK to own a very small piece of paradise, as I do.”

This from MikeOnTheMic at greaterfool.ca 23 Jan 2010 1:47 pm

“As a life-long Vancouverite, I agree that RE prices here are not realistic. When would you all think that we started to exceed realistic prices? In the early 2000’s? Anyways, I’m hoping that we get back to realistic RE pricing at some point over the next few years. Maybe with what’s going on in the markets this past week we will see the start of a return to RE sanity soon.

On the other hand, I am a bit puzzled by the consistently pejorative terms and connotations I often read here [greaterfool.ca] when it comes to describing Vancouver and the implication that RE ownership here is crazy (current unrealistic prices notwithstanding). It was 15C and sunny here yesterday. The cherry blossoms are starting to come out, as they usually do on the West Coast at this time of the year. You can start your day-off driving 20 minutes out of town to go snowboarding all morning and then grab lunch on the way to the beach and windsurf / kitesurf all afternoon.

I have a neighbor who works in Korea full time so that his wife and kids can live here. He visits twice a year for a week at a time. He says that it is a dream for him to have his family live here because his kids’ prospects are so much better. This is not uncommon.

I grew up here and lived through the 1980’s influx of families from SE Asia, many of whom were able to purchase expensive RE. Having travelled to many places in Asia and experiencing first-hand the quality of life in that part of the world, it is no surprise to me that people are still flocking to our shores. As their economies improve, the upwardly mobile should increase in number and many will likely look to follow their emigrated friends and family.

I’ve lived on the East Coast through brutal winters and snow / ice storms through until May-June. A lot of people I knew out there were either dreaming about or planning to move out West at some point.

I’ve had friends visit from Europe who can’t believe the relatively low cost of living here when it comes to basic things like groceries, gas, utilities, etc…

Some posters here have compared Vancouver / Victoria lifestyle / RE / economic issues with those in the SF Bay area – fair enough – but we’ve got free health care and less random crime (OK – crime in Vancouver is a problem, but have you been to Oakland?).

Aside from stupid RE prices right now, I guess one other downside is the earthquake risk here, but if anyone is really worried about that, you could always bury a school bus and use it as an underground bünkerhaus. Not much of a view, but you might get some geothermal heat for free :)

Maybe I’m just trying to reassure myself that it’s OK to own a very small piece of paradise here, as I do. I agree that there is a huge need for folks to ponder the emotion that colours these considerations. Thanks to your advice Garth, I’ll try to ensure that my RE risk is not at foolish levels. Maybe I’m just a local guy who loves living here and thinks that the place gets a bit of a raw deal on this blog, all b/c RE is currently over-priced. But hey, don’t you know that it rains all the time in Vancouver? Who would want to live there anyway? Peace.”

“The strength of the market has been something to behold, and there are a lot of rich people in China. If only 1/1000 came here we would be cleaned out.”

This exchange from ‘Vancouver RE and then some‘ is archived here as representative of opinions, sentiments, and anecdotes that are currently common on Vancouver RE discussion forums. It is a variation of the ‘ceaseless and consistent demand’ argument, and of the argument that “Vancouver is the Swiss Bank account of International Real Estate”. Versions of this position have been highlighted in prior posts, as voiced by James Schouw, ‘Vancouver Rocks’, Bob Rennie, and Maggie Chandler, amongst others. -vreaa

Anonymous at fishyre.blogspot.com 18 Jan 2010 12:09 pm – “The bubble theory has failed as far as Vancouver RE is concerned, we have to admit it. We have reached a permanent high plateau of prices here. RE is still red hot in Vancouver. I talk to builders and they are still going knocking at doors asking owners if they want to sell, so they can tear down and build a new house and sell it for a profit to a rich chinese. What people forget is that we are being overwhelmed by rich chinese influx of immigrants. I dont see RE going down for the foreseeable future. Drive near any school at recess time in Vancouver and see how dominant the asian pattern is, it is proof that hot money is still flowing here.”

fish10 added 19 Jan 2010 3:52 pm “Yes, it is possible that we have reached a permanent high. Nothing can be discounted. The strength of the market has been something to behold, and there are a lot of rich people in China. If only 1/1000 came here we would be cleaned out.”

Kitsilano Sale; $335,000 Over Ask: “The bidding was frantic and the look in the eyes of the buyers at the open house was desperate.”

Panic buying in Vancouver’s Westside. -vreaa

This exchange at RE Talks 19 Jan 2010

eyesthebye 10:24 am“I have a friend that just lost out on a Kits house.
Assessed 1.175M; Asking price 1.475M; Bid 1.65M; Selling price 1.81M.
The bidding was frantic and the look in the eyes of the buyers at the open house was desperate. Total of 6 offers. No subjects. The high bidder was Chinese, as was the buyer for another property in Kits a couple weeks ago; [where there was] also bidding 300K-400K above asking.”

gse36 1:26 pm“Given the market, 1.488M was quite well priced. 2758 sqft, old house completely redone, so its almost like new. With a suite. A new house like that would go for 2M+, so 1.8M for a rebuilt one, with suite, is about right. Assessed value is 1.1M-1.2M, but of course that is mainly land value — it doesn’t account for the fact the house is very usable.”

Taipan 2:11pm“Great to hear the desperation entering the market once again. No need to think, just make sure you out bid everybody else. I love these anecdotes. I’d even grab a coffee and hang around watching to see that sort market psychology.”

International RE Investor: “We are not stupid. This market is probably the worst RE investment in the entire world. I’ll buy Vancouver RE in 2011 when the values are 60% lower.”

This from VRENGD at vancouvercondo.info 19 Jan 2010 1:42 pm

“Vancouver is an irrational bubble. Just like Ireland, its economy is founded on construction and RE speculation. When that stops, we will have 10% unemployment. I personally have about $1.5M in cash left in the bank after a couple of purchases in California (where rents cover my mortgage payments plus some profit). I’m waiting to buy Vancouver RE in 2011 when the values are 60% lower. The bulls think that international investors will buy Van RE at these levels. Let me tell you something: we are not stupid. By any rational measure (historic price growth, price to rent, price to income) this market is probably the worst RE investment in the entire world. Trust me, there are no international investors buying Van RE right now. It is just a bunch of deluded, frenzied locals.”

Bob Rennie Tells Chinese Customers Vancouver Prices Will Keep Rising

These excerpts from ‘Vancouver property still good buy for post-Olympic era’ at xinhuanet.com 17 Jan 2010

“Bob Rennie, principle of Rennie Marketing Systems, Canada and USA, told Xinhua in an exclusive interview that Vancouver properties would conservatively rise 4 to 4.5 percent in 2010, which would present an ideal opportunity for investors.”

“Vancouver is going to face a shortfall of apartment units following its hosting of next month’s Winter Olympics Games, said the realtor known as the city’s “CondoKing”

“Rennie predicted by the first quarter of 2011 the shortfall in apartment units would be noticeable in downtown Vancouver as there were very few major sites left to develop. Also, with a lot of “money on the sidelines” earning low interest, this coupled with a low supply of available properties, would put pressure on the market”

“Regardless, Rennie said Vancouver was still an affordable city by world standards and a good investment. “The unique thing about Vancouver is nobody builds rental towers (anymore). For the offshore investor properties are easy to rent out as there is no rental stock.” Unlike China where real estate speculation is rampant, Rennie added in Vancouver it was “more passive speculation” with investors buying for the long term. “Every market has people who want to jump in and jump out, but there is something unique about Vancouver that once people get their name on title they tend to hold and that’s what maintained prices. And a very low vacancy rate has maintained prices on property prices.” With Chinese-Canadians about 300,000 of the city’s 2.2 million population Rennie said Asian investors were increasingly an important factor to the market, accounting for about 25 percent of the overall sales. “With the amount of money being made in China, and with the acceptance of China to Vancouver, we have to be in the top two places on the planet for China to look at, to move money to. We see it happening right now, it’s happening a lot. It used to just happen in the luxury market, now it’s happening in all the market.”

“So our absolute best advertising for Vancouver and its real estate is not “Best Place on Earth”, ski and golf in the same day, mountain and ocean view, democracy & human rights, etc. Nope. Our best advertising apparently is people like Lai Changxing who don’t get deported and gets to live high on the hog here.”

Much is said of the allure of Vancouver for Asian home buyers. Here a poster quotes Richard Russell, and gets his own wife’s opinion regarding the relative attractiveness of Vancouver & La Jolla, California, from a Chinese perspective. -vreaa

This from space889 at vancouvercondo.info 13 Jan 2010 10:26 am

“I note more and more Asians here in La Jolla. I’m thinking that in ten years La Jolla will be half Chinese. Consider this — you’re a Chinese multimillionaire (and there are thousands of them). You want to get rid of a lot of the dollars you own. You search the world — the best weather on earth is in San Diego’s La Jolla. La Jolla is situated right on the Pacific Ocean. The US is a free country, nobody goes to jail and is tortured because he announces that Obama is a dud. Home prices in the US are cheap compared with prices in China. La Jolla is a bargain, and probably a good “safe haven” just in case things don’t go right in China. ” – [Richard Russell, DOW Theory Letters, the largest fee based subscription investment newsletter in the world.]

“I showed this to my wife and her reaction was “no I think rich Chinese people will still to Vancouver because Vancouver is way more famous in China than La Jolla”. I think partly this is due to at least 2 popular Chinese TV series based in Vancouver. Also when she moved to Vancouver back in 2000, it was in part because people posted online in China that Vancouver is paradise on Earth – however she absolutely hates the rain and the dark cloud here, really disappointed. She much prefer sunshine. She thinks Hawaii is really paradise on Earth. As well, she said even more important is the fact that virtually all the rich people in China who can buy a $1.5M/$2M+ houses in Canada or US got at least a good portion of their money illegally or at least in an extremely questionable manner. What does that mean? It means that they would prefer Canada over US because they don’t need to worry about being deported back to China with their $$! Yeap that’s right! Her believe that there will be lots of rich Chinese people coming over and buying up expensive real estate is simply because Canada don’t deport criminals with lots of money back to China! So our absolute best advertising for Vancouver and its real estate is not “Best Place on Earth”, ski and golf in the same day, mountain and ocean view, democracy & human rights, etc. Nope. Our best advertising apparently is people like Lai Changxing who don’t get deported and gets to live high on the hog here :) :) :) And I have absolutely no comeback for that argument, especially now Canada has the approved tourist destination status which makes coming to Canada easier than before. So yeah come winter Olympics, we might indeed get a flood of rich Chinese people coming over and buying expensive houses and moving prices up even more. However what else these people might bring over, that’s an entirely different question.”