Tag Archives: Anecdotes

Newsflash For Residents Of Vancouver – “Gravity Exists; You Are All Mortal”

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Petitioned The City of Vancouver
The City of Vancouver: Stop a funeral home from moving into 450 W 2nd Ave!

Petition by
Concerned Citizen
Canada

Property owners in the neighbourhood are concerned that property values will be negatively affected and that the City of Vancouver failed to consider this before approving a change of use for the commercial property in question.

To:
The City of Vancouver, Board of Variance
Stop a funeral home from moving into 450 W 2nd Avenue!
Sincerely,
[Your name]”

– posted at change.org approximately 6 Feb 2013 [hat-tip Aldus Huxtable]

Comments below the petition thread:

“Will negatively impact my property value” – Beth McNeil

“I am a resident of the adjacent condo building and I am concerned about the changes this funeral home will bring to our neighbourhood.” – Samantha Cuncliffe

“I am concerned about the impact the funeral home will have on the neighbourhood.” – Concerned Citizen

“impact of a funeral home on the neighbourhood, sales, and also the risk of health impacts caused by the funeral home.” – Laura MacCormack

“the parking!!. we have the police station right by us already. they already took up all the parking and parking anywhere they want . also the bike line just add in few months ago. there is already no parking for the owner and the visitor and for the business… that will effect our property value. so is that mean we allow to pay less tax.??…we pay tax for our community. we want to enjoy it. the funeral is right by the main traffic road. when they have a event. i cant imagine the impact for the location. they are on the route for Sunrun. and couple of the running event. is going be a nightmare.” – janet wong

“There is no reason to put a funeral home in such a thriving neighborhood. No one benefits from this, not even the funeral home because it’s a terrible location for one…no parking, police station operations that will likely disrupt any funeral services going on, frustrated neighbors who will not support them, etc etc.” – Emily Ng

Yes, we are all mortal.
And, while we’re dismantling ridiculous fantasies..
..our real estate is in a massive speculative bubble.
– vreaa

‘Martin From Richmond’ Update – “Prices are down more than 15%. Another thing worth considering is that 2013 is the Year of the Snake for those of Chinese ancestry.”

“Prices have dropped more than 15 per cent in one popular neighbourhood in Richmond.
Almost a year ago, a 2800 square foot, five bedroom three bath house sold in the Garden City area for $952,000, a bit above asking price in what was described as a cash sale that followed a bidding war between two interest parties.
Within the last week, another house, a 2400 square foot, three bath house on a similar-sized lot sold in the same neighbourhood for $805,000, below the asking price of $838,900 and even below assessed value.
In both cases, the homes didn’t need any work, and were move-in ready, updated, and well-designed.
The $147,000 drop in price works out to be a 15.4 per cent price drop in the area.
And I think it’s an indication that at least one home owner seriously considered “cashing out”, and ultimately did, and that others might do the same, if the real estate industry continues to grind to a halt.
Another thing worth considering is that 2013 is the Year of the Snake for those of Chinese ancestry.
A renowned Richmond fortune teller and feng shui expert predicts that the Year of the Snake will see profit margins slip, and said business will slow down
Whether you believe in Chinese astrology is not the point; considering the influence of foreign and mostly Chinese buyers on the price spikes since late in 2010, it’s whether this significant subset of deep-pocketed people believe it.
The fortune teller said 2013 will see a significant slow down, and said people will be more careful in spending their money.
As with my earlier “self fulfilling prophecy” comment, if Chinese investors really do believe that 2013 will be a slow year, that could influence their decisions, and in fact, result in a slow down. It all depends on if enough people are drinking the Kool-Aid.
But the fortune teller also noted that the “wealthy Chinese” are unlikely to liquidate their assets by taking low-ball offers, and will decide to rather sit on their properties, awaiting better times.
So, recent sales activity (according to the Greater Vancouver Real Estate Board, January 2013 sales were the second lowest for that month since 2002) combined with the Chinese New Year, could further trigger prices to slide.
Something worth considering for those who are mullling over the possibility of re-entering the world of home ownership.”

– Martin from Richmond, via e-mail to VREAA, 6 Feb 2013

We don’t believe in astrology any more than we believe in leprechauns, but we do ‘believe’ in the fact that others believe in such things, and that those beliefs can influence herd behaviour.
A speculative mania is itself based on false beliefs.
– vreaa

“I live in the new Wesbrook village on UBC campus and finally stopped by the Wesbrook Welcome Center. I wonder how long they will keep up this rate of construction?”

NTRcsdX

“I live in the new Wesbrook village on UBC campus and finally stopped by the Wesbrook Welcome Center. They have a map of all current and planned development, (captured here with my) camera phone. The grey ones have been approved but haven’t been started, apparently they should all be completed in 10-15 years. That’s a rate of .67 – 1 highrises and 2 – 3 lowrises a year. Since I moved in 6 months ago none of the show rooms or open houses have closed. I wonder how long they will keep up this rate of construction?”
LazyCanadian at VCI 8 Feb 2013 12:24pm, image posted here.

“UBC has gotten totally out of control. I graduated there a couple years ago, and it was getting a little ridiculous with the amount of construction, but now it’s even worse. When I visited for the first time in 2005, it was beautiful and was one of the reasons I wanted to go there.
The whole campus is under construction now, and they’ve cut down massive parts on the endowment lands (a.k.a. woods) to build million dollar houses and condos (which is just what the generally poor students need).
Most of the open green spaces are now huge condo towers. You can barely walk across campus anymore, with all the detours. Some people recently hung up a bunch of signs. [see below]
Back in 2007 they permanently cancelled the annual big party students have on the last day of classes, because the people in their million dollar homes on campus didn’t like the students drunkenly walking through to the stadium. Apparently the realtors didn’t tell them that they lived on a campus…
Nothing against UBC, I loved the school when I went there, but now when I visit campus, I feel bad for the current students.”

Andrew at VCI 8 Feb 2013 2:38pm

Guerilla signs protesting construction on UBC campus, images from blog post ‘Anonymous snarker channels construction anger into guerilla memes’, Ubyssey Social Club, 12 Oct 2012. Archived here for the chronological record:

constructionsign2

constructionsign3

constructionsign4

‘Drop From Peak Chart’ and Recent Market Action – Paint Dries Faster In Vancouver!

click to enlarge

A ‘Drop From Peak Chart’ constructed and posted by ‘an observer’ at their invaluable blog, ‘Vancouver Price Drop’ [8 Feb 2013]. [click to enlarge]

This elegant chart shows how SFH (single family home) prices in various major markets in the US descended from their peaks.
Superimposed on this is our own BC Lower Mainland SFH price drop. At eight months into the LML descent, we are outstripping the rate of price drop experienced by all US markets, save Miami.
It may feel like prices aren’t budging, or that they are dropping very slowly, but this is not the case.
– vreaa

In a related vein, these very useful market updates and commentary from yvr2zrh (zrh2yvr) at VCI 8 Feb 2013 11:15am & 9 Feb 2013 3:00am; and at VREAA 9 Feb 2013 1:23pm

Market Overview:
“A couple of views 1 week into the month.
1.) Every person who did not sell in Van West last year seems to be hitting the list button this week. We are on pace for close to 500 new listings in one month of Van West – – this is by far a record.
2.) Detached listings are up more than attached and sales are down more than attached. We are on pace for 10+ MOI on detached for Feb – – yeah – Mr. Muir – sellers don’t have to sell eh??
3.) Sorry to be a broken record but – – Richmond – Dead. Forecasting close to 1,000 listings at month end already and 18 MOI. Must be fun . .
4.) Van East attached – pretty balanced – still. Projecting 5 MOI this month which is still up from 4 last year.
5.) Biggest loser? West Vancouver. Forecasting 18 MOI this year for Feb compared to 6 last year. North Van at 6 compared to 2.5 last year. North Van is one of the true middle class (low offshore spec) areas left. 2.6 MOI last year was still very very tight – – at 6 – it’s not bad but really slow for spring. Generally North Van just suffers from low amounts of spec sales so generally not very high inventory.
6.) Burnaby? I’m not joking but last year it was MOI of 3 in Feb and this year we are looking at 12. Oh well – – sorry if you’re trying to sell in Burnaby.
7.) Finally- Van West – – Should end up with 9.5 MOI. Last year, when we thought things were pretty soft already – it was 4.5 (a high amount for Feb). . .
If we end Feb with less than 1700 sales – the HPI will be flat to only modestly down (a big achivement for Feb). . .
Using REBGV numbers – I currently forecast over 15K for Feb inventory. Compares with 14K last year. Note that this excludes bare land and multi-unit properties.
As a trend – – Feb is worse than Jan on a seasonally adj basis.
However- as you all know – – people just don’t have to sell – – and – – as we all know – – People never have to buy.”

Comparisons With 2009:
We all know the market is bad, regardless of any realtorspeak that has made the press in the past week. We also mostly know that the worst period in Vancouver real estate was from September 2008 through about March 2009. Those months were the lowest sales since 2000 and some of them (such as Nov/Dec 2008) are unlikely to be reached again in the future. However, right now we are again at an inflection point. On a market wide basis, February 2013 is shaping up to be the 2nd worst Feb in recent years. However, as you look at the pockets – it is clear that there are some where performance is much worse.
So – Comparing Feb 2013 with Feb 2009, here are some general thoughts based on the current trend.
1.) Sales are higher in 2013 and should be about 10% over Feb 2009. This is a massive deterioration from last month as Jan 2013 was 75% over Jan 2009. This is the effect of a market that is weakening now compared to a market in 2009 that was strengthening.
2.) Listings are much higher than 2009. 2009 was low but in 2013, we are 1.5 StdDev above the average from 2002-2011. So – given that the board is saying people won’t list – I think it is a wish more than a fact. (they are trying to re-create the 2009 market by removing listings – which actually happened then as people were in a state of shock – this is not happening now – people have lost a lot of money and they do not want to lose more . . . so they list).
3.) We are on track for worst sell to list in any February in recent history.
4.) Some markets are worse. Van West Detached forecasting worst Feb in history with lowest sales and highest listings. Don’t know if anyone has access to Van West Detached listings for past 15 years but did we ever have over 400 listings in a month?
5.) Richmond Detached – heading for worst Feb ever. . . .
6.) Even Vancouver West Condos – Volumes looking to be below 2009 with higher listings. (We are not however seeing record listings in Condos – they are high but we would need 20-30% more listing volume here to show panic – – – )
7.) Van East detached – Not seeing the same panic in listing volume as Van West. Sales are down however. Lower inventory and lower listing rate will keep MOI here a bit lower (i.e. 8 instead of 12)
8.) Richmond Condos? Panic !!!! Sell now or forever eat Dim Sum and live in the Mandarin Residences!!!! Not sure why you would ever buy a condo there until 30-40% price decreases occur.
9.) West Van – – Sales volume quite similar to 2009, slow – – but listing volume is way up. I would say it is Panic there in a West Van sort of way. Think about it – West Van has 10,000 detached homes. At the current selling rate, the turnover in the real estate stock would take 30 years. Seems a little long – the average time in a house is likely not that long . . !!! Good luck to them all.
10.) North Van Detached – Modestly better than 2009.
11.) Burnaby – Sales rate is similar but listing rate up 42%.
February is barely a week old. However – it is already certain to be the worst Sale to List ratio ever and have an inventory increase not seen in any other February.

Move-Up Market Freezes:
“It is amazing. Friday had 1 sold and 25 new lists for Van West detached. Almost all stats continue to point to problems. We are getting seasonal increases in average. Not sure why really as the median is going down but average seems to be sneaking up – likely because of a few $10M properties selling on low sales. In any case – – One thing that just has to be hurting this market is the continued flat-down prices on condos. I just have to look at all the young people that I worked with in Vancouver in 5 years that had bought condos since 2007. So many of them are now at that stage in life where they should be looking to get to the next step. However, they have no equity from investment gains and transaction costs will eat most of their savings equity. They make decent income but pay $1800-$2000 per month to live in a 650 sq ft 1 bedroom. That really sucks – – One of my friends is really nice, super smart, motivated and a good worker. Can’t seem to get a better job and wants to move to a house in North Van (Must be the Persian connection.). However, . . . he’s stuck in a Rennie Special . . . . . . after 5 years of slaving the mortgage payments, the person that made the most money was Rennie himself – – ;. . . .
Anyhow . . . I’m looking forward to March as for sure it will be below 2009 . . . . . one month earlier than last year.”

Further commentary on Vancouver price weakness in a recent post by Ben Rabidoux at The Economic Analyst [Real estate sales in Vancouver, Victoria crumble in January; Rot is worse than headlines indicate 5 Feb 2013]. Excerpt:
“January sales-to-new listings ratio.. was the second weakest in well over a decade (next only to January 2009 when people were still not sure if the financial system would survive) and a months of inventory reading that is the second highest in well over a decade. I’ve only compiled detailed data for Vancouver back to 2000, but I suspect that, outside of 2009, you’d have to go back to the early 90s to find numbers this weak. In short, January was a brutal month in Vancouver.

On 28 Nov 2012 Ben gave a presentation in Vancouver on Canadian Housing that was discussed in a thread here 29 Nov 2012. The full presentation is up on youtube, for those who haven’t yet seen it:

‘Canadian Real Estate: What happens next?’, Ben Rabidoux, Vancouver, 28 Nov 2012

“Over 6k of the announced 16K job losses in BC were due to real estate development slowdown in the Lower Mainland.”

“Labour Minister Pat Bell was on CBC radio earlier today. He said that over 6k of the announced 16K job losses in BC were due to real estate development slowdown in the Lower Mainland.”
Patiently Waiting at VCI 8 Feb 2013 3:37pm

It does seem that things are slowing down on various fronts.
These are the kinds of self-perpetuating downward-spiral/vicious-cycle factors that will cause lower prices to beget lower prices still.
Our recollection is that we have roughly 7%-8% of the work-force directly involved in RE construction, whereas more normal levels are 3%-4%.
– vreaa

“These things are obvious when viewed from the outside.”

“Had a nice talk with a doctor department head tonight. He moved here from Chicago where he’s still paying the mortgage on an underwater property. He looks at the prices here and he can see that it doesn’t add up. He was wondering when the tipping point would come for Vancouver. In any case, he has no intention of buying here for now. These things are obvious when viewed from the outside.”
N at VCI February 8th, 2013 at 12:18 am

When a group is trapped in the jaws of an asset bubble, the vast majority of participants don’t have the capacity to ‘view’ it ‘from the outside’.
With perspective, the speculative mania can be seen very clearly for what it is.
– vreaa

Globe & Mail BC Promotion Labels Vancouver Condos ‘Unaffordable’

globeandmail

“This offer card from Globe & Mail for BC subscribers, was in our mailbox last week. Love that the generic Vancouver condo photo has the word ‘unaffordable’ on it. Obviously not so much advertising revenue from that sector for G&M lately 😉 Fun times!”
– JM, by e-mail to vreaa, 5 Feb 2013 [Thanks JM. -vreaa]

RE Mentions In Popular Culture – Canada’s Largest Model Railway Out; Condos In – “This is kinda depressing, and I don’t even like trains.”

see my train a leavin'
See my train a leavin’

“Canada’s largest model railway is facing the daunting task of tearing apart its massive layout and years of rebuilding in a new location. A planned condo development is driving the Model Railway Club of Toronto from the basement area it has called home for nearly 70 years.”
Globe and Mail, 6 Feb 2013 [hat-tip 4SlicesofCheese, who added “This is kinda depressing, and I don’t even like trains.”]

There’s gotta be a blues lyric in here somewhere…
– vreaa

Spot The Speculators #98 – “Robert has been tapping his savings for years to support his biggest investment, a rental property that bleeds more than $1,000 a month over the rents it produces.”

“Registered retirement savings plans are the lifejackets for the retirement of a British Columbia couple we’ll call Robert and Jill. At 55, he is a maintenance supervisor for a small town. Jill, 48, is a self-employed management consultant.
“We need to get more money for our retirement and we have to make up for the savings that Robert lost through bad investments,” Jill says.
“We have to rebuild our investments, specifically our RRSPs, if we are going to be able to retire comfortably.”
Their RRSPs have a balance of $355,000 heavily allocated to growth stocks and mutual funds.”

“Robert and Jill have been short of cash and have abandoned RRSP contributions in the wake of a divorce that cost Robert $100,000 on top of a six-figure loss on a business.”

“Unfortunately, Robert has been tapping his savings for years to support his biggest investment, a rental property that bleeds more than $1,000 a month over the rents it produces.
If the property were sold for its $650,000 estimated value, it would leave $200,000 after paying off the $414,366 selling costs. That would pay off $30,000 in other debts and leave $170,000 to put in RRSPs. In 10 years at retirement, that would have grown to as much as $290,500 and could then add $16,000 a year to retirement income.”


Assets:
Residence $550K
Rental property $650K
RRSPs $356K
cash $10K
3 cars $35K

Liabilities:
Mortgages $414K
LOC + CC $30K

Networth:
$1.12M

– from ‘Family Finance: RRSPs to the rescue’, Andrew Allentuck, 6 Feb 2013 [hat-tip space889]

Clearly only hanging onto rental property for presumed future price gains. Ergo, speculators.
Percentage of net-worth in RE: 100%
Percentage of net-worth that should be in RE at age 55: 35% or less
Percentage of BC boomers in similar position: [your guess here]%
Implied price downside when couples like this started selling: [your guess here]%

– vreaa

Usual Suspects – “Nothing To See Here” – “When they realize they’re not going to see significant declines in pricing, they’ll get on with their lives and move on with purchasing decisions.”

“January’s numbers are not a surprise. Some buyers may be sitting on the sideline waiting for a deflationary spiral to develop. When that doesn’t develop, when they realize they’re not going to see significant declines in pricing, they’ll get on with their lives and move on with purchasing decisions.”
– Cameron Muir, chief economist for the B.C. Real Estate Association.

“January’s numbers suggest that there is a possibility the decline in sales should well flatten out.”
– Tsur Somerville, director of the centre for urban economics and real estate in the Sauder School of Business at the University of B.C.

“When a home seller isn’t receiving the kind of offers they want, there comes a point when they decide to either lower the price or remove the home from the market. Right now, it seems many home sellers are opting for the latter.”
– Eugen Klein, president of the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver

Above quotes from ‘Lower Mainland home sales continue downward trend’, Derrick Penner, Vancouver Sun, 5 Feb 2013

The tune doesn’t change, despite the substantial change in the backbeat.
Perhaps this is the first time that Muir has used the term ‘deflationary spiral’.
And, we’ll say it again: it’d be nice to see Sommerville at least sketch out a few alternative scenarios for the benefit of Vancouver citizens. The lack of critical analysis of this market from local academics remains one of our bubble’s most remarkable features.
– vreaa

Financial Times – “The lack of buyers is sobering evidence that Canada’s housing boom, which began in 2000 and bounced back to life after the financial crisis of 2008-09, is now over.”

“The lack of buyers is sobering evidence that Canada’s housing boom, which began in 2000 and bounced back to life after the financial crisis of 2008-09, is now over.
Nervousness about the outlook for house prices, and the effect on the economy if they slump, is casting a pall over the last few months in office of Mark Carney, the Bank of Canada governor who will take over at the Bank of England on July 1.
Mr Carney, who will appear to face questions before the British parliament for the first time on Thursday, was courted by UK Prime Minister David Cameron’s government partly on the strength of Canada’s relatively strong performance compared with other large economies. Just as he is leaving, the shine is coming off that record.
Worries about Canada’s house prices and rising consumer debt prompted Moody’s, the rating agency, to cut the credit ratings of six of the largest Canadian banks last month.

Mr Carney deserves neither all the credit for Canada’s successes nor all the blame for its failures. The economy has been driven by forces beyond his control, particularly events in the US, and he has shared economic management with ministers and government agencies. The biggest changes in the housing market last year were the government’s moves to cut back the availability of mortgage insurance provided by the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, a state-owned company.
Nevertheless, it was the decisions by the Bank of Canada under Mr Carney’s leadership to cut interest rates during the crisis and hold them down subsequently that enabled a surge in household debt and house prices. While American consumers were running down their debts, Canadians were adding to theirs, so that by the end of last year household debt was 165 per cent of income, in the same territory as the peak in the US at the start of the crisis.
House prices, meanwhile, rose 23 per cent in the three years to April 2012.”

– from ‘Canada housing cloud cast over Carney’, Financial Times, 6 Feb 2013

Yes, Canada’s housing boom is over.
The Financial Times makes the same observations about Mark Carney’s tenure that we discussed here (VREAA 26 Nov 2012) when his move to the Bank of England was first announced.
– vreaa

‘Crib Crawl’ – Failed RE Venture Developing Into A Television Series – “As a way to shift slow-moving inventory it was a flop.”

“Desperate times demand desperate measures. When Jordan and Russ Macnab, estate agent brothers in Vancouver, Canada, had a glamorous single-bedroom apartment, priced at over C$600,000, that was stubbornly refusing to sell, they decided on a marketing innovation: the “crib crawl”.
They rented a limo bus, stocked it with drinks and snacks, and took a party of possible buyers on an evening tour to see the apartment in question and about half a dozen others, in a mobile viewing party.
The experiment was not a complete failure: the Macnabs attracted a lot of interest, and are developing a television series based on their idea. They are planning their second crib crawl next month.
As a way to shift slow-moving inventory, however, it was a flop. Not one of the apartments they showed found a buyer. Vancouver, which until last year had Canada’s strongest growth in house prices, is now its weakest region. The number of homes sold in the greater Vancouver area dropped by 23 per cent last year.
“It’s a bit of a stalemate at the moment,” says Jordan Macnab. “Buyers are waiting for it to crash, and sellers don’t want to give it up.”

– from ‘Canada housing cloud cast over Carney’, Financial Times, 6 Feb 2013

Vancouver “Condopocalypse” Forecast – “Vancouver housing analyst Frank Schliewinsky is predicting a near collapse in condo sales across most of Metro Vancouver this year, with sales falling by as much as 50 per cent from a depressed 2012.”

“Noted Vancouver housing analyst Frank Schliewinsky is predicting a near collapse in MLS condominium sales across most of Metro Vancouver this year, with sales falling by as much as 50 per cent from a depressed 2012.
“The Mayans were right, at least as far as the Vancouver condo market goes,” Schliewinsky, founder of Strategics, states in his latest Vancouver Condo Report. “Condopocalypse in 2013. MLS sales of apartment and townhouse condos could be down to 8,000 units in 2013.”
If true, this would be a near-50 per cent drop in condominium and townhouse sales across the region compared with a year ago.
In the highrise market, Schliewinsky forecasts sales could fall to just 2,650 units this year, down from 3,200 in 2012. He predicts highrise condo prices will fall a further 7 per cent in 2013 following a 3 per cent drop in 2012: “The overall price trend is now negative.”
The low-rise condo sector, which makes up the bulk of the resale market, will not perform any better, he warns.” …
“Eventually the market will hit bottom and right now it’s not clear where the bottom is. Further price drops will play a big role in slowing the downward sales trend. The average MLS price per low-rise unit in 2012 was $326,000; a 1 per cent decline from 2011. The average price per square foot was $368; down 2 per cent from 2011. So far, price reductions for low-rise condos haven’t been enough to stimulate demand and unless there’s a major shift over the next 12 months, another 3 per cent drop isn’t going to do much either. ”
Vancouver realtors agree. They are seeing downward pressure on condominium prices, with luxury unit prices down 20 per cent from 2012 and lower-priced units down 10 per cent to 15 per cent.”

– from “Condopocalypse” now forecast for Vancouver’, Western Investor, 30 Jan 2013 [hat-tip joey jo jo]

When a speculative bubble starts to deflate, demand is deterred not stimulated.
In a normal market, demand would increase as price drops would immediately represent better true value.
In a spec mania, people have been buying on the premise that prices are going to continue to rise. When prices start dropping, that premise disappears. So, counterintuitively, demand drops as prices fall.
Price drops beget price drops.
– vreaa

Rick Mercer On Housing – ‘Flaherty’s Mixtures’ – “My hand sort of looks like a house” ; “When your property market isn’t erratic enough.”

Subtitle: ‘6 Months Ago’
He: I’m starting to think that buying this house was a very shrewd move.
She: I know.. look how much house prices are up
He: Well, believe me, I know the housing market and..(reads newspaper) whoooa!..(coughing fit)
She: I’ll go and get Flaherty’s Mixture!
Announcer: Flaherty’s Mixture is an acrid blend of Higher Down Payments and Shorter Mortgage Terms that cools off a feverish housing market
He: (drinks mixture) oh my gawd!
She: Tastes like a hockey bag.. but it works!

Subtitle: ‘6 Months Later’
She: Housing prices are down..
He: Down a little?
She: Seventeen percent!
He: (coughing fit; pounds chest)
She: I’ll get Flaherty’s Other Mixture!
Announcer: Flaherty’s Other Mixture is a blend of No Money Down and 40 Year Terms that caused the market to overheat in the first place.
He: (drinks other mixture) Hmmm.. tastes like crantinis.. let’s buy ten more houses!
She: They should put warning labels on these things..
He: My hand sort of looks like a house… (drinks again)
She: You shouldn’t mix Flaherty’s Mixtures!
He: Solarium is a funny word!
(both drink)
Announcer: Flaherty’s Mixture and Flaherty’s Other Mixture. When your property market isn’t erratic enough.

– from Rick Mercer Report, 29 Jan 2013

Transcribed here for the record.
Many a true word… Spot on regarding the effects of Flaherty’s changes.
Also, noteworthy for making light of the seriousness of the beginning of the downturn; implying just another wrinkle in the ‘erratic’ market.
– vreaa

For other ‘RE References In Popular Culture’, see here.

“Almost one-half of Home Buyers Plan participants paid less than the full required repayment amount in tax year 2011.”

“Almost 1.8 million Canadians participate in the Home Buyers Plan (HBP), according to the latest available numbers from CRA but here’s the interesting part…
We’ve long operated under the assumption (based on past StatsCan research and CRA data) that 25-35% of people don’t make the annual repayments required by the plan. It turns out those numbers are a bit shy.
CRA told us last Wednesday that almost one-half of HBP participants (47%) “paid less than the full required repayment amount in tax year 2011.” (2011 is the latest data available.
That means almost 1 in 2 HBP users paid income tax on the RRSP money they borrowed and didn’t repay on time. (The amount of any repayment shortfall is considered taxable income, and tax is assessed on this amount at the individual filer’s marginal tax rate.)
That’s not to mention the tax-deferred investment gains they’re forgoing by not leaving the down payment funds in their RRSP. This lost growth directly impacts their income in retirement.
Such is the price that many young buyers are paying to own a home sooner. Is it worth it?”

Rob McLister at Canadian Mortgage Trends, 5 Feb 2013

“Our unhealthy obsession with home ownership is never more clearly seen than it is in a well-used federal government program called the Home Buyers’ Plan.
The HBP allows first-time homebuyers to withdraw up to $25,000 from a registered retirement savings plan to help cover a down payment. Somehow, we’ve decided that houses come before retirement savings. That’s a mistake and it needs to be corrected by winding down the HBP.
Prepare for hysteria if this is ever seriously discussed by the federal government. “There’d be a deafening outcry from the real estate industry, mortgage industry, first-time buyers, and many politicians,” Robert McLister, editor of the Canadian Mortgage Trends blog and a mortgage planner, told me in an e-mail. “First-timers have already taken the brunt of recent rule changes, so canning the HBP would be viewed as war against young homeowners.”
This is true, and here’s why. The idea that everyone should own a house is a foundational and uncontested financial principle here in this country. The massive rise in house prices since the mid-1980s has convinced almost everyone that there’s not only a social and economic benefit in promoting home ownership, but also a financial one for owners.
If you’re buying in some cities at current prices, that latter point is debatable. …
Through the HBP, the federal government is telling us that buying a house is important enough to scoop down-payment money out of your retirement savings. Why is Ottawa handing out bad financial advice?”

Rob Carrick at The Globe and Mail, 4 Feb 2013

The spec mania in RE has been fuelled by those who have overextended themselves, using any means available, to buy properties at preposterous price levels, in the certain belief that prices can only ascend further.
There is now evidence from numerous quarters of debt limits being reached.
– vreaa


Postscript:

From the comment section at the G&M:

“Wrong on this one RC.
– best decision ever for us, able to purchase our first house several years earlier
– have steadily paid back the HBP so the money is not out of service forever
– house steadily appreciated faster than our RRSP by several hundred thousand $”

– Big Dan 5 Feb 2013 6:03am

Yeah, looks great on the way up, don’t it? – ed.

‘The case for strata ownership of secondary suites’ – “It will reduce the number of rental apartments, but if it also reduces the number of renters by allowing some of them to buy, what’s the problem?”

7894504.bin
Basement space can often be converted into a suite but building-regulation issues may arise when considering strata ownership.

“North Shore realtor Dave Watt and Vancouver developer and consultant Michael Geller, are independently and in different ways starting to push for changes to happen.
Watt has written to the three North Shore councils noting that, although secondary suites are well accepted, “these are the only form housing where our governing bodies mandate that the residents must remain tenants forever.
“Why?”
Geller, an architect, planner, consultant and developer who’s attempting to get City of Vancouver approval to practice what he preaches with a small new housing project, says the problem tends to be zoning law, not strata law.
He hopes to replace an existing single-family home just off West 4th in Point Grey with a duplex-plus project. Each half of his new duplex would have a high-end, 800-square-foot secondary suite, and the property would also have a coach house — a total of five homes in all. And each would be sold as a separate strata unit.
“It’s a way to gently increase density,” he told me. “And it would work especially well in what I call transition zones, just off major arteries in the buffer areas between them and single-family residential areas.” …
I guessing the main argument against moving in this direction will be that it will reduce the number of rental apartments on the market. And it may. But if it also reduces the number of renters by allowing some of them to buy, what’s the problem?

– text and image from ‘The case for strata ownership of secondary suites’, Don Cayo, Vancouver Sun, 30 Jan 2013

See also:

Basement Suite In East Vancouver Sells For $590K
VREAA 24 Feb 2012

Basement Suite In Vancouver Ask Price $900K – “Currently the garage is being used as an office and storage and is included in the square footage.”
VREAA 11 May 2012

“Our landlords are booting us out. My wife has been onside until now, but with the threat of homelessness she’s wavering. I feel that buying now is akin to climbing out of the lifeboat and back onto the Titanic.”

“Our landlords are booting us out of the house we’ve been in for 5 years. (She’s divorcing him and booted him out, and we’re next down the eviction chain as he’s moving in when our lease expires in a few months.) So we’re desperately looking for rentals in the same neighbourhood (Cambie) due to schools and work. Or we’ll buy somewhere like North Van and uproot everyone but only once.
After being around these boards for 5+ years I feel that buying now is akin to climbing out of the lifeboat and back onto the Titanic. The wife has been onside until now, but with the threat of homelessness she’s wavering. So I’m trying to decide how big the potential downsides are. Pay $3k in rent for 1-2 years then buy (and deal with 2 moves) or bite the bullet and buy now and pay that much for the mortgage (until rates go up). The potential savings by renting and delaying a purchase is what I’m trying to estimate.”

/dev/null at VCI 22 Jan 2013 11:21am

“Sorry to hear that. Here is my view. We (a family with 2 kids) are renting half-a-duplex in Burnaby for $2000/month for about 5 years. Good area, decent schools, commute is ok. The landlord is a nice person, but has (and always had) thoughts about splitting the place into two units and rent them for $1500+$800 (this trick worked for a while for the neighbour landlord, until last year when they have started having problems with finding good tenants for the downstairs unit). I am tracking the rental pool in the area pretty closely and found that a lot of 5bdr/SFH in the $2300-$2500/month range entered the market last year (starting late summer I would say, most of them accidental landlords). Places like ours are steady in the $1800-$2100 range for the last 5 years, and the influx of of those 2300-2500 homes definitely helps keep those prices from growing.
Last fall, I had a number of conversations with my landlords and gave them the full picture, mentioning that we would have no problem finding something decent in the very same area. Of course, we were perfect tenants all these years. Apparently, it worked out, everybody seems to be happy now.
Back to your situation. First, I think buying something just because “we have to move out of here anyways” is a plain bad idea. Do the math and then decide. Second, I personally wouldn’t mind renting for another few years in your situation, even if it comes at a bit higher price comparing to the deal you have now. Rental pool in our (yours and mine) sector is improving, it’s renter’s market.
Yes, I know moving is painful. I know your wife wants a nest (mine too). Yes, – peer/parent pressure, accidental landlord risks etc. But the risk of losing money by buying something is just way too high these days. My $0.02.”

C.Junta at VCI 22 Jan 2013 12:51pm

Great analogy from /dev/null.
Whether you’re on the Titanic or in a lifeboat, the speculative mania is at the very least time-consuming, inconvenient, anxiety-provoking, and distracting.
– vreaa

“I am in LOVE with the natural beauty here, but I can’t find work! The more time goes on, the more sad, lonely, desperate and lost I feel in this city.”

“Wow, this is really defeating. I mean, I am in LOVE with the natural beauty here, but I can’t find work! it’s ridiculous! I live in Surrey and the job market seems horrendous. I’ve applied for about five months straight, and nothing. nada. it’s like you’ve got to be super cut throat to find that you’ve competed with hundreds of other sorry applicants. forget having credentials. really? this is sad. I want to believe that it’s possible to find a way to stay here, but the more time goes on, the more sad, lonely, desperate and lost I feel in this city…which feels absolutely awful as I left Toronto feeling the same way. What the hell kind of life are we supposed to live where your next meal is being paid by the service industry job that you abhor and can’t wait until you find your next soul sucking job? where are the JOBS other than the oil loving alberta? what the hell is wrong with this country?”
Tova at VREAA 2 Feb 2013

Cowboys Will Be Cowboys – “I just opened up an account with National Bank to trade Over The Counter stocks… I know it’s super risky but I need the money to buy a condo.”

Don writes by e-mail [2 Feb 2013]:
“A friend of mine who lives in lives downtown YVR posted this on Facebook complaining about Bank Investment people:
“I do my own research beforehand. I never buy their shitty products. I just opened up an account with National Bank instead to do OTCs… I know it’s super risky but I need the money to buy a condo this year”.
So here they are trading OTC BB stocks (aka Pump and Dumps) to make money to buy a Condo!…no risk here!”

“I like the footer below the CTV News clip predicting that the Vancouver bubble will remain intact. Doesn’t that mean they’re admitting we’re in one?”

CTV ran a newsclip entitled ‘Experts predict B.C. real estate bubble will remain intact’ [link here]. mac at vancouvercondo.info [31 Jan 2013 12:17am] posted a commentary, excerpts below:

“That CTV clip is hilarious.

First off, I like the footer below the video predicting that the Vancouver bubble will remain intact. Doesn’t that mean they’re admitting we’re in one?

Then there’s the 1-bed condo in what looks like Kits (West Broadway ish near Alma). Used to be asking 465K and now down to 439K. Uh huh. A friend sold a far more central 1-bed condo at Arbutus Walk about 18 months ago for 419K. So we’re still 20 big ones above the market–last year. But never mind. The agent “feels” a sale is imminent. Hot tip for the realtor: maybe get someone to remove the graffiti off the back of the building just under the gorgeous south-facing balcony.

But why has the realtors spidey senses been piqued? Maybe it’s because “phones are ringing, there’s optimism, and it feels like we’re back into selling real estate again”. AKA: Spring. Listings. Calls.

Then comes the Onni guys. The first one, glassy-eyed, stands in his empty showroom talking about a lot of activity in the sales centres resulting in a lot of people entering into contracts signing, signing, signing. Well? Where are they?

But don’t worry folks. Prices are expected to dip 1% province-wide (no mention of the already 40% decline in some areas of the province like the interior and Whistler) and only 2%-5% in metro Vancouver. Whew!

Don’t believe us? Let’s trot out a Chinese agent from, gosh golly, Onni again. And if you care to notice he’s standing in front of Central 1 –the home of Helmut Pastrick-, where there are absolutely no Onni projects currently going up. WTF is that guy doing being interviewed there anyway?

Any-who… this guy is the obvious expert on the foreign market because he can tell you the exact opposite of what Larry Yatowsky’s realtor survey showed us, that YVR is a destination for a lot of international buyers. That’s the only truthful but anachronistic statement in the whole piece.

Then the news guy, who never asked a question in the whole piece, summarizes that the experts agree that high prices in metro van are here to say. Thanks for the laugh News Guy!”

mac is correct to call CTV out on the internal contradiction of the title ‘Experts predict B.C. real estate bubble will remain intact’. To really say that a market is in a ‘bubble’ is to also predict that it will implode. Most market watchers don’t thoroughly understand the dynamics of a speculative mania.
– vreaa

SFH Developers Cutting Prices

v971425_1

2808 W 21st Ave, Vancouver Westside (V971425)
New build 2800sqft SFH on 33×123 corner lot
Offered now for $2,888,000

Hat-tip to Rob for this example of shrinking profit margins. He also writes: “Another good example of west side drop‏. This had been listed at 3.3 million for about the past 8 months…..now this week dropped to 2.88 million.”

It sounds like the plan was for two new builds on one old ‘double’ lot, a project where we’d imagine projected profit margins were quite generous. Even at $412K ‘off’, $2.888M still represents preposterously poor value for a buyer.
At what price levels does this deal become untenable for the developer?
– vreaa

“The 47-year-old public-sector employee says her biggest financial concern is not owning her own home. Yet living in Vancouver, with its absurd housing prices, she doesn’t necessarily want to.”

As the primary breadwinner in her family, Monica is facing a paradox. The 47-year-old public-sector employee says her biggest financial concern is not owning her own home. Yet living in Vancouver, with its absurd housing prices, she doesn’t necessarily want to.

“We’ve stayed away from real estate because to stay in Vancouver it would be out of our reach,” says Monica, who has a husband and an eight-year-old son. “I’m not crazy about a condo, and that’s about all we could likely afford, even in the suburbs. I don’t want to be house-poor.”

Given that she and her writer husband, Blake, 50, have deliberately chosen not to pursue property ownership, she feels they should be concentrating on setting money aside for their golden years. At that point, she’ll collect a pension of about $4,300 a month.

On top of the $1,850 they pay monthly to rent a house and $270 a month to lease a car, they put some money away regularly into their son’s registered education savings plan (RESP), which will total about $7,000 by the time he graduates from high school. To date, Monica has turned to her bank for financial advice, and her registered retirement savings plan (RRSP) consists of that institution’s balanced funds.

While Monica admits feeling somewhat discouraged about her financial future, she isn’t ready to give up on getting her house in order just yet.

“Since we don’t own our own place, I think we should be saving more money, but I feel like we’re always behind,” Monica says. “I’m reading a book by Gail Vaz-Oxlade called Never Too Late[Take Control of Your Retirement and Your Future] that talks about saving for retirement even if you’re starting in your 40s. I’m watching [Ms. Vaz-Oxlade’s TV series] Til Debt Do Us Part.

“I hate owing money,” she adds. “2013 will be the year of financial organization.”

Summary of finances:
Combined income of about $121,000.
$42,000 in Monica’s RRSP.
$10,000 in savings.
$5,000 in credit-line debt.
$7,000 in RESP, the value in 10 years, invested at a monthly rate of $40.

– from ‘Renters want a house. Is it a good investment?’, Gail Johnson, G&M, 28 Jan 2013

If all things remain equal, this couple are likely heading for hardships in retirement, where their income will be substantially lower than it is currently, and their savings are too low to materially impact retirement income.
It is interesting to surmise that, if they had purchased a home in Vancouver ten years ago, their bottom-line would probably look healthier, but for all the wrong reasons. Many couples with similar incomes but who own their homes have had their household balance sheets ‘bailed out’ by unnatural gains in RE prices. As a group we have become over-dependent on home values for our future financial health.
– vreaa

“A friend of mine had to ditch his Vancouver Kitsilano rental condo because every month he was dishing out expense after expense but his rental income didn’t come close to covering the expenses.”

“One can have problem tenants even in great areas in Vancouver based on my experience. However, unless you are paying almost entirely in cash, you will have a losing investment. A friend of mine had to ditch his Vancouver Kitsilano rental condo because every month he was dishing out expense after expense but his rent didn’t come close to covering the expenses (with a 20% down payment). My family has OK luck with Vancouver rental property but that’s only because they paid cash but even then some of their tenants have been problematic. Victoria has worked OK, too, but that’s because we bought years ago – again the cash flow just isn’t there if you were to buy today. I will say I have had excellent results over the last six years in Saskatchewan – specifically Regina. And I’m still buying there. Even today, you can still buy a SFH for $300,000 or so in a good part of town and get $1800 month rent plus utilities and get your pick of good quality tenants. And that’s without an in-law suite – you just buy a place in a good part of town, rent it to tenants with good jobs and not worry too much. You can get other homes at even better cap rates in not so nice parts of town but they will be high maintenance and definitely not suitable for the out of town landlord. With a vacancy rate of 0.8%, it is actually easier to get good quality tenants with stable jobs in Regina than in Downtown Vancouver, believe it or not.”
westar99 at RE Talks, 15 Dec 2012 4:11pm

A Journalist’s Richmond Tales; And His Caution – “It could be argued that the operators of these bear sites are hoping to trigger a “bubble collapse” simply by writing about it all the time, and offering opinion biased in that direction, even supported by stats. To what end? Perhaps they are renters, and want to jump back in post-collapse, and then reap financial rewards when prices go up.”

“I’ve been watching carefully, and reading religiously, the postings on this website.
As a journalist for nearly two decades, I enjoy the perspectives shared, especially about the biased nature of certain opinions from within the media, real estate organizations, and members of the public, as well as those who run this site.
I’ll wade into that later, but first, some real facts from Richmond, B.C., where much of the real estate craziness has been centred.
First, a little background.
My family first bought a split level house in 2002. A modest, 1,500 square foot, three bedroom, 1.5 bath, on a lot that measured about 8,000 square feet.
We bought for $320,000, and within six months, the prices in the area “soared”—I use quotes, because at that time, we thought this was the definition of “soared—by more than $100,000.
At that point, we’d already maxed out what we could borrow from the banks, and we thanked our lucky stars we got in when we did.
But our house wasn’t worth renovating, so when a home in the neighbourhood with better bones was listed in 2007, we jumped in.
We sold our place in a bidding war for $30,000 above our asking price, and landed this other home, a dozen doors away, for about $550,000, slightly more than we sold our old place for.
By then, my wife was back at work, my kids were in elementary school, and we could afford the larger mortgage.
We then renovated it, planning to live there for the next 25 years.
But alas, then the real craziness began, which redefined “soar” for us.
We were approached by a developer offering seven figures. Our jaws hit the floor. But we’d just renovated, and were emotionally invested.
Then we slapped each other in the face, and agreed to sell it for roughly DOUBLE what we’d bought it for. This was in 2011.
Turns out, the buyer also bought at least one other home a few doors down, and was planning to raze the structures.
Having received the offer, we were worried about the market continuing the insanity, and didn’t want to be priced out, so we sought out another home not too far away. It was priced $300,000 less than what we were about to sell our home for.
The deal closing period was the normal three months, and it was the spring of 2011. This was when the first hint of the frailty of the market appeared.
The buyer backed out of the deal, citing that financing wasn’t approved. (We’re convinced it was an excuse; banks were handing our mortgages like flyers)
We were shocked, and the deal to buy the other home died too.
Although it didn’t appear that way at the time, we were actually lucky the deal died.
We decided to list the property, and in early 2012, we sold it for $100,000 less than the previous year’s deal, to another developer. But we were still well ahead despite the six figure drop.
Our notary public was shocked to see the price we got. Nobody was getting that kind of money anymore in 2012, she said, for a tear-down.
Instead of buying again, we decided to rent, and that’s where we are today, as prices continue to fall.
By how much? Well, don’t let the Greater Vancouver Real Estate Board’s averages mislead you.
The devil is in the details.
Those median selling prices truly can fool you into thinking prices are “staying about the same”.
That’s not true. We’ve seen asking prices commonly drop by more than $50,000 for one $950,000 house we looked at. That other house we’d bought—before the original deal died—wouldn’t fetch within $150,000 of what we’d bought it for, and the neighbourhood is relatively ugly and certainly less desirable.
We almost bought another house from that original deal, bout were eked out in a bidding war for the house that sold for $950,000. Today, similar houses in the neighbourhood are listed for $120,000 less.
There are people out there, still wishing for their $1,000,000 pay day. But that’s not going to happen anytime soon, based on my close observations.
I’m convinced, based on conversations with my realtor and others, that much of the hype was generated by offshore buyers seeking new homes, and local developers scooping up tear downs to meet this foreign demand.
Today, in my old stomping grounds, there are close to two dozen brand new megahomes listed for $1.8 million or more.
They’ve been lingering on the market for more than a year, and in one case, closer to two. Those prices aren’t budging, but those developers will surely start feeling the pinch, as money from offshore (mainly China/Hong Kong) has dried up.
One house directly beside ours was bought for $720,000, a crazy price, only for the prices to further soar to $950,000 for our neighbour, in the span of just three months in the fall of 2011. A new house was built in its place, sold for $1.78 million to the parents of my son’s classmate, and is now back on the market for $1.9 million. Wishful thinking, no doubt, for someone wishing to be on the outside again as prices fall.
In the McNair area, I’ve seen houses drop in asking price by more than $150,000. Now, sure, you could say the owners were simply listing too high. But we’re not talking talking about one or two homes. We’re seeing many homes drop in prices by six figures.
When those home prices drop enough to attract a buyer, that will bring down the median selling house price, but only if the market for multi-million dollar homes remains quiet as well. If demand for pricey homes rises, those other price-drops would be masked.
I believe that prices have been propped up for a long time by higher-priced homes selling, hiding the street-level changes I’m now seeing.
This month, I’ve seen some evidence of change.
One house in the South Arm area listed for $720,000, and sold within a month. It was a modest rancher, on a corner lot of above-average size.
Other slightly larger homes on smaller lots, including one directly across the street, still are asking for $910,000+.
The bottom line: whether it’s a matter of the “bubble bursting”, I’m no expert.
But when prices drop 20 per cent, that’s nothing to sneeze at.
Now, back to the issue of biased reporting, readers should keep this in mind.
Journalists aren’t paid to share their opinions unless they are writing a column. They simply report results of research, observations, and the opinions of others, essentially.
When I read that a real estate association thinks this will be a good year, I’m reminded of one of my university classes.
I believe the term/phenomenon is “self-fulfilling prophecy”.
Real estate assocations/boards are understandably directed by their membership, which is realtors.
To say the sky is falling might just trigger said sky to fall, at least in terms of prices.
This should be self evident to readers.
It’s like asking a used car salesman if he likes used cars, or if the price of a particular used car is fair. If he says the price is inflated, you’ll offer less, and he’ll get less commission, thereby shooting himself in the foot, and earning the scorn of his bosses.
The same could be said for financial analysts. Those with enough of a following/clout could trigger cold feet among deep-pocketed investors, resulting in a cascading-like crash if they indeed predict one.
And finally, the same could be said of the analysis done by the operators of this site.
I once interviewed the frequently-quoted-on-this-website real estate expert from UBC, who referred to the Vancouver-based blogsites that have been predicting a crash for many years. (He claims there is no bubble, and therefore it can’t burst.)
It could be argued that the operators of these sites are hoping to trigger a “bubble collapse” simply by writing about it all the time, and offering opinion biased in that direction (even supported by stats; I’m reminded of the saying, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, the latter of which can be conjured up to demonstrate almost anything). To what end? Perhaps they are renters, and want to jump back in post-collapse, and then reap financial rewards when/if prices go up.
Is this likely? Who knows.
But don’t believe everything you read.
Do your own homework, keep your ears open, take everything with a grain of salt.
And remember; when you hear an opinion, take into consideration who gives it.
Do they have a vested interest?
Almost everyone does, including me, as I’m hoping prices plummet so I can reduce my future mortgage as much as possible.”
– Martin comment at VREAA 31 Jan 2013, held up in the automatic moderation filter (likely because of length); also sent via e-mail; headlined rather than posted as comment.

Many thanks to Martin for the stories, and for sharing his thoughts about bias.

Anybody who downsized their RE holdings, or sold entirely, in the vague vicinity of the top, will do fine.
This will, however, end up representing only a very small percentage of owners.
Anybody who bought or ‘moved-up’ during the run-up, especially in its latter stages, was speculating on future price gains, even if they didn’t know it.
Those who purchased with leverage, with more than their entire net worth in RE, will be particularly fortunate if they end up lightening up at higher prices. In the vast majority of cases, this occurs by good fortune.
Martin used some skill in selling in so much as he was able to recognized the prices offered as being ludicrously high, and made the decision to take advantage of that, and he should be congratulated for doing so.

As to the discussion of bias of opinion, including that on this site:
Of course each and every argument has a source and, consequently, a perspective.
And it is wise to suggest that we all take careful note of the source of any opinion.
At the same time, I would suggest that it is far more important to consider the content of the argument than its source. This is one reason, in our opinion, that there is a place for anonymous commentary on the web: their are benefits to making content the focus of the discussion.

A waggish response to Martin’s fair objections concerning bias would be to make a quip something along the lines of “Yes, but my bias is the right one!”
The true word in that jest is that we do, indeed, believe that the evidence (the “statistics”, if you like) strongly supports the bear case. We genuinely can’t see how one can’t conclude that this is a market that’s very overextended and at high risk of a large price collapse. We accept that people arguing many other positions may see the market very differently, and may be just as sincere in their arguments as we are. And of course we are aware that some can make arguments in an insincere fashion, when they have other motives for putting out a certain message.

As for the argument that bears are trying to purposefully bring on a crash, I’d say that the thought greatly overestimates our influence. Remember, bears have been warning of the mania for many years and it has made absolutely no difference to the behaviour of the herd. A healthy and balanced market cannot be influenced by an opinion that it is not a healthy market; especially if that voice is heard by only a very small percentage of participants.
When a speculative mania collapses, reasons for the collapse are always sought. But manias end simply because they are manias; bubbles pop because they are bubbles. We have started a collection of
Erroneous Theories For Falling Prices(linked in the sidebar categories section) which already has 7 candidates. Number 3 is “Vancouver RE Bears Caused The Crash” – excerpt:
“It is common, as speculative manias implode, for ‘naysayers’ to be blamed for the shift in sentiment.
But those same bears went unheard when the market powered ahead. Suddenly, inexplicably, people start listening to bearish predictions? No, the market turns of it’s own accord, and the sentiment change reflects the turn, not the bears suddenly gaining attention.”

– vreaa

Nanaimo – “I have talked to about 20 people who say sale prices in their neighborhood are down approximately 20 percent in the past six months based on actual neighbors they know who have bought and sold.”

“Greetings from the mouldy city of Nanaimo. I have talked to about 20 people who say sale prices in their neighborhood are down approximately 20 percent in the past six months based on actual neighbors they know who have bought and sold. It’s funny how the real estate agents’ cartel shows no change. How can this be?”
– from Musty basement wannabe, greaterfool.ca, 30 Jan 2013 12:34pm

Clearly, your neighbours are all wrong.
Only kiddin’.. clearly prices are down.
But the real estate salespeople aren’t really a ‘cartel’.. they’re just a group of individuals doing their best to protect their interests by keeping the market turning over.
– vreaa

The Froogle Scott Chronicles: Mortgaging Our Souls In Paradise – Part 10: Reversion To The Mean

Van_house_price_1960_2012

Reversion to the mean

The most likely outcome of any bubble is a reversion to the mean — that is, a return to prices that reflect the long-run mean or average growth rate that existed prior to the bubble. As the various forces that helped inflate a bubble cease to exist (low interest rates, easy access to credit), or reverse themselves (speculative mania turns to fear), prices collapse. One or more external events may also play a role; however, bubbles always contain the seeds of their own demise. Market sentiment in its extreme form is the true creator and destroyer of bubbles.

Falling prices typically stabilize around the point where they would have been had prices followed the average growth rate rather than rapidly inflating and then collapsing. In the aftermath of a house price bubble, prices probably won’t return to where they were before the bubble — although they may temporarily overshoot to this lower level. They’ll likely return to where they would have been if there had been no bubble and they had continued increasing at the average rate of growth, a rate which is typically supported by economic fundamentals such as average household income, house-price-to-rent ratio, and the rate of inflation. We can see two historical examples of this phenomenon in the chart above — the Vancouver house price bubbles that peaked in early 1981, and in late 1994. In both cases, a half-decade later, prices had reverted to the mean.

I’m able to present a clearer picture of this pattern because I recently discovered some Vancouver house price data stretching back to 1960 (details below). Most commentators in the Vancouver RE blogosphere have been using the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver (REBGV) average price chart, which goes back to only 1977, at least in the publicly available version, or the Teranet house price index, which goes back to only 1990.

The current Vancouver house price bubble certainly looks epic, in both size and duration. Many people now believe that  a) the past decade has been a bubble, and  b) the top has been reached and the bubble is now beginning to collapse. If the current bubble follows the pattern of the two previous bubbles, collapsing prices should eventually revert to the mean.

What is the mean?

So, what is the mean, or average annual growth rate of Vancouver house prices, in percentage terms? Based on the data underlying the chart above, here are the numbers I’ve arrived at, which assume annual compounding. For calculating the growth rate of the current bubble, I’m excluding 2012, because it has the appearance of being the transitional year between rising prices and what could be a long period of falling prices — although no one can yet be certain.

  • 1960 to 2001, House Price Nominal:  8.33%
  • 2001 to 2011, House Price Nominal:  10.21%
  • 1960 to 2001, House Price Real:  3.62%
  • 2001 to 2011, House Price Real:  7.83%

‘Nominal’ means actual price — what someone actually paid at the time they made the purchase — and ‘real’ means actual price adjusted for inflation — that is, with the inflation component of the price in relation to a control or base year  factored out. The base year is 2002, in this case, meaning real amounts are expressed in 2002 dollars.

The distinction between nominal and real rates of growth would appear to be quite important to the analysis of Vancouver house prices. If we look at only the nominal rates of price growth, we see less than 2% separating the rate for all the years prior to the current bubble, and the rate for the bubble itself. Judging by growth rates alone, we might question whether much of a bubble exists. However, if we look at the real rates for the same time periods, we see a much different picture. The bubble rate of growth is more than double that of the years 1960 to 2001, with over 4% separating the two growth rates. That’s a major difference, especially given the effect of compounding over a number of years.

The reason for the seeming discrepancy between the nominal and real comparisons is that the period 1960 to 2001 includes the years of rampant inflation that occurred during the 1970s and early 1980s, an era when the annual inflation rate hit 14% and almost 13% in two separate peaks. That rampant inflation hasn’t been factored out of the nominal house prices for the period. By comparison, the period 2001 to 2011 has had stable and low annual inflation, around the 2% mark. For the bit of prognosticating I’m about to embark upon, I think it makes better sense to use real rates of growth, which remove the distortions caused by significantly different inflation rates, and which highlight price changes more integral to the housing market itself. Based on the data I’m presenting here, I’m going to use 3.62%, the real growth rate between 1960 and 2001, as the baseline for house price appreciation in Vancouver.

It’s worth noting that a real growth rate of 3.62% in excess of the rate of inflation is significantly greater than the 0.5% above inflation that I think Robert Shiller has demonstrated for American houses, long-term. (Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong about the details of Shiller’s finding.) In other words, even using the most conservative baseline for Vancouver house price appreciation puts us well beyond most other places in North America. That’s how Vancouver became the city with the most expensive residential real estate in Canada even before this latest bubble began to inflate in 2002.

Prognostications

There’s no guarantee that the current bubble will follow a pattern similar to the pattern of the previous two bubbles, or price bubbles generally, but if it does, this second chart shows some possible outcomes. The chart also shows that real house prices are currently 40% overvalued when compared to the 1960-to-2001 mean, and were almost 50% overvalued at the end of 2011.

Van_house_price_1960_2022_mean_reversion

  • Crash — Reversion to the mean takes 4 years, and occurs in 2015. Over the entire period, real price decreases 22.53% from $762,304 to $590,547. Nominal price decreases 17.11% from $921,625 to $763,939.
  • Current Trajectory — Reversion to the mean takes 7 years, and occurs in 2018. Over the entire period, real price decreases 13.92% from $762,304 to $656,215. Nominal price decreases 2.25% from $921,625 to $900,847.
  • Slow Grind — Reversion to the mean takes 11 years, and occurs in 2022. Over the entire period, real price decreases 0.71% from $762,304 to $756,856. Nominal price increases 22.00% from $921,625 to $1,124,654 (not a typo — read on).

These projections assume inflation remains stable over the next decade at approximately 2% a year. So a house price that remains constant in nominal terms from one year to the next has decreased in real terms by approximately 2%. In other words, the house has lost value because it hasn’t kept pace with inflation. Which partially explains the seeming anomaly of some prices decreasing only modestly, or in one case even increasing, while the bubble deflates — the modest decreases are added to by the loss against inflation, and the increase only keeps pace with the 2% annual inflation rate, whereas the mean line is increasing at 3.62% above the inflation rate. The other key factor is that the modest decreases and the increase take place over longer time periods than the decreases in the crash scenario, which gives the mean line, increasing at 3.62% annually (compounded), the chance to catch up to a more slowly deflating bubble line.

Almost certainly, the actual unwinding of this current bubble will not be as regular as any of my three posited scenarios. It will likely be a much more jagged affair, in what has traditionally been Canada’s most volatile real estate market. I’m not sure if the head-and-shoulders pattern from the stock market is truly applicable to real estate, but the two previous bubbles certainly have something resembling that shape. A quick, partial crash in the next two or three years, followed by a rebound (the right shoulder) as unwary early vultures pick up houses at what they consider bargain prices, certainly seems plausible — followed by a second leg down, perhaps less steep but longer, as that initial, relatively shallow wave of buyers exhausts itself.

One other interesting observation made possible by the second chart: from 1972 onward, Vancouver has experienced a closely spaced succession of residential real estate bubbles. For almost the entire 40-year period, a bubble has been either inflating or deflating, with only a couple of years during which the market actually closely tracked the mean. Which suggests that most Vancouverites have never known a stable real estate market in this city. They don’t know what one feels like. I haven’t studied the real estate markets of other cities so I don’t know if this is the norm or not, but I suspect in many cases it’s not. It may help explain the somewhat neurotic, love-hate relation many locals have with real estate. Like junkies, we’re either floating upward, or coming down hard.

Still too damn high

There is a crucial consideration that this technical analysis, such as it is, ignores. Even with a reversion to the most conservative long-term mean that can be extracted from the first 41 years of data, houses in Metro Vancouver will still be too damn expensive for average families. I think there might come a point when absolute or nominal prices become so overwhelmingly high that they break the model, even with a mean reversion. I wonder if Vancouver has gotten there. A growth rate of 3.62% above the rate of inflation is probably not sustainable indefinitely. Because it’s a compounding rate, that mean growth line is exponential, becoming increasingly steep. Like an aircraft, it may eventually stall.

The growth rate of Vancouver house prices has meant that when this latest bubble began inflating, it was inflating a benchmark house price in 2001 of about $350K, which was already the highest in Canada by a large measure. A reversion to the historical mean may not do it this time around. The entire housing market in the city may need a 50-year reboot that creates a new historical mean that’s a lot lower than the current one. Who knows? When the 1981 bubble collapsed, real prices were chopped in half, and nominal prices weren’t far behind. It could happen again. The worst of that earlier bubble was a quick, four-year spike and plummet, so far fewer people would have been affected than are affected now. The dimensions are so much larger this time that the results of a similar implosion truly would be spectacular.

One long boom?

A suggestion I’ve read on several occasions is that Vancouver has been in one long boom of varying intensity for several decades — certainly post-Expo 86. For perspective, I’ve taken the real growth rate for Toronto houses from 1966 to 2001, and from 1966 to 2012 — in other words, excluding and including Toronto’s own bubble — and applied them to the Vancouver chart, using Vancouver’s 1960 price as a starting point. The difference is striking. By Toronto’s standards, we’ve been in a bubble since 1972. I have my doubts that Vancouver’s real growth rate can continue to outstrip Toronto’s by a percentage point or more indefinitely. You’d think that Vancouver mean line would eventually have to lose some altitude. For that to happen, real prices would have to traverse the mean line and stay below it for prolonged periods. In other words, a true crash, and a permanent reassignment downward of the growth rate of Vancouver house prices.

Van_house_price_with_TO_mean

Plastic-folding-chair economist

In one of the early episodes of The Froogle Scott Chronicles I stated that I’m not even an armchair economist. Let me reinforce that now. I’m not even a plastic-folding-chair economist. I could well have made some blunders in my analysis. If so, I won’t resent having them pointed out by anyone with greater expertise in these matters.

Happy continued bubble watching to all…

About the data

Okay, so hold on to your shirts. The numbers for 1960 to 1973 come from an article that Ozzie Jurock published in the Calgary Herald: “Price rise history defies naysayers” (July 28, 2007). I consider the argument that Jurock puts forth in the article, regarding the financial return on houses, arithmetically far-fetched. However, I think the house price data is probably legitimate. Being the suspicious type, I compared the Jurock data to the other Vancouver house price data I could find, to make sure that it aligned reasonably, and for the years in common it does.

The numbers for 1974 to 2012 come from the Royal LePage House Price Survey, which is referenced by the Bank of Canada, and UBC’s Centre for Urban Economics and Real Estate, so I’m assuming the data is valid. I followed the BOC and CUER practice and averaged the prices for Royal LePage’s Detached Bungalow and Executive Detached Two-Storey categories, which probably approximates the REBGV’s Detached Benchmark category.  And I averaged prices for all municipalities in Royal LePage’s “British Columbia, Vancouver Area”.

The Jurock data continues to 2007, but beginning in 1974 it mixes houses and condos, so I switched to the Royal LePage data, which luckily begins in 1974 — although it is somewhat spotty in the earlier years.

This final chart shows how the various data sources align. For the REBGV Detached Average data, I harvested what I could from REBGV news releases. For years prior to 2001, I estimated prices using the REBGV Residential Average Sales Prices chart. All numbers are for December of each year.

As an additional check, I included the REBGV Detached Benchmark, and I also applied the Teranet HPI to the Detached Benchmark, using the 1996 benchmark price as a starting point. As you can see, all lines are strongly correlated, with the exception of the more recent years of the average line, skewed higher by the stratospheric prices at the top end of the market, and the more recent years of the Jurock line, which mixes houses and condos. Single family home and condo prices have increasingly diverged in recent years, so mixing in condos pulls the line lower.

In general, I find searching for Vancouver house price data on the web a frustrating experience. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but I do get the sense the local real estate industry releases only the data they want to, and controls the vast amount of information at their disposal very carefully.

If anyone can point me to other sources of Vancouver house price data, I’d be most appreciative. For example, I haven’t been able to find the MLS HPI and average price data going back to 1980 that Ben Rabidoux, and Kevin at Saskatoon Housing Bubble, often use for their charts.

Van_house_price_with_data_comparison

Things can go missing from the web, so I’ve replicated the data from the Jurock article below. I’m assuming other commentators may want to include it in their own analyses. The year 1991 was missing from the data, so I averaged the prices for 1990 and 1992.

Year & Avg. sales price Year & Avg. sales price Year & Avg. sales price
1960  $13,105 1961  $12,348 1962  $12,518
1963  $12,636 1964  $13,202 1965  $12,964
1966  $15,200 1967  $17,836 1968  $20,595
1969  $23,939 1970  $24,239 1971  $26,471
1972  $31,465 1973  $41,505 1974  $57,861
1975  $64,471 1976  $68,694 1977  $64,556
1978  $66,243 1979  $70,888 1980  $100,087
1981  $148,860 1982  $107,829 1983  $114,618
1984  $113,722 1985  $112,737 1986  $120,035
1987  $132,658 1988  $160,375 1989  $209,670
1990  $230,641 1991  $237,921 1992  $245,200
1993  $279,800 1994  $305,600 1995  $309,500
1996  $288,200 1997  $287,000 1998  $278,600
1999  $281,100 2000  $295,977 2001  $285,900
2002  $301,500 2003  $329,500 2004  $362,800
2005  $395,400 2006  $482,000 2007  $540,100

In further communication after writing the above article, Froogle added the following thoughts:

– The e10 data still only goes back to 1960. If we had Vancouver house price data for the entire 20th century, what sort of trend line would emerge? That the average price for a house was only $13K in 1960 would suggest that the trend line was probably considerably less steep in the first half of the century.

– Did something start to happen in 1972 that has been continuing ever since, causing at least a portion of the baseline elevation? The thing that comes most immediately to mind is that the first of the boomers began hitting the earliest of the prime house-buying years. Forty year later, the last of the boomers, people our age, are perhaps now exiting the last of the prime house-buying years.

– Even bears would have to agree that the fundamental nature of Vancouver has changed. Not an “it’s different here” argument, but rather that Vancouver has shifted from being a resource-economy-based provincial outpost to being an Asia-Pacific-facing metropolitan region of a certain magnitude. World-class or global city? No. But certainly no longer a provincial backwater, either. Which means the trend line for house price appreciation for modern-day Vancouver should probably be compared to other cities of equal stature, not to earlier-times Vancouver.
—————–

Thanks very much for all this, Froogle Scott. Here follows my discussion. – vreaa

DISCUSSION:

Reversion to which mean?

Froogle Scott has sourced earlier price data, and given us a welcome analysis and discussion of the possible targets of a price reversion. The trend-line derived from data as far back as 1960, and the comparison with the long term Toronto price trend-line are healthy food for thought. If prices do ‘revert to the mean’, to which mean do we expect them to revert?

There could be arguments for the validity of any one of the following trendlines:

1. Trend-line determined by 2001-2011 rate of price increase (7.8% p.a. real)

2. Trend-line determined by longer-term 1960-2001 rate of price increase (3.63% p.a. real).

[2.5. Something in-between 2 and 3. More about this later.]

3. Trend-line determined by nominal prices rising at the same rate as long term wage inflation; little more than 0% real growth.

Trend-line #1 is the bullish case, where the very large annual gains of the last ten years continue indefinitely. By this logic, the current ‘correction’ in Vancouver RE prices would be argued to be over. We’d say at the outset that this represents particularly wishful thinking from those ‘long housing’, that 7.8%-real p.a. increases are preposterously large, and that we will soon find out that rate is far from sustainable.

The most pertinent debate that emerges from Froogle Scott’s analysis is whether we’d expect long-term support at the longer-term 1960-2001 trend-line, at a rate of 3.63% p.a. real. Even though 3.63% p.a. real growth rate may seem low to participants who are now accustomed to the 7.8% real p.a. increases of the last decade, I think we have to question whether a long term 3.63% rate is in any way typical, normal, or sustainable.

At what rate should we expect real prices in any given city to increase over the long-term?

Shiller’s very long term analysis suggests that housing prices should revert to long term means determined by long term wage inflation; by his findings, about 0.5% real growth.

Measures like income growth, population growth, and GDP growth are likely the best indicators of expected long term RE price growth.

“In Canada, as in other countries, movements in land and house prices over long time horizons are driven primarily by changes in population and per capita income. Over shorter horizons—a decade or less—house prices may outpace population and income in some periods and lag behind them in others.” – BOC Review, Winter 2011-2012

Here are some recent indicators of what rates of growth we can expect from these drivers:

Metro Vancouver’s population increased by 9.3% over the five years between the 2006 and 2011 census, an annual compound rate of 1.79%. (source: Statistics Canada)
From 1981 to 2011, the population grew from 1,300,000 to 2,313,000, for an annual compound rate of growth of 1.94%. (source: Metro Vancouver)

Median total family income in Vancouver increased from $62.9K in 2006 to $67.1K in 2010, an annual compound rate of 1.63%. (source: Statistics Canada)
Real income per person increased by slightly less than 1% per year in the 1980’s, actually decreased in the 1990s, and rose by 1.61% per year in the 2000s. (Source: Business Council of BC)

GDP in British Columbia increased from $197.0B in 2007 to $217.8B in 2011, an annual compound rate of 2.54%. (Source: BCStats)
GDP increased at annual rates of 2.12% in the 1980’s, 2.72% in the 1990’s, and 2.36% in the 2001-2010 decade. (Source: Business Council of BC)

Froogle surmises that 3.6% real p.a. growth is “probably not sustainable indefinitely”, and I would strongly agree. Why would we expect Vancouver RE prices to continue to increase at well above the current rate of inflation, at a rate greater than population growth, income growth, or GDP growth? Why should Vancouver RE prices continuously increase at greater than the rate of a city like Toronto, decade after decade? (Note that this is not a question about absolute price levels.. Yes, we can accept that Vancouver commands a ‘mild weather/beautiful vista’ premium.. but that premium is ‘priced in’; it explains why there may be a baseline difference in prices, not why prices should increase each year at about a 35% greater rate in Vancouver vs Toronto.)

The lack of convincing answers to these questions, as well as other factors concerning asset price bubbles that are mentioned below, lead me to believe that prices will go a lot lower than support determined by the 1960-2001 3.63%-real trend-line level.

It may be no coincidence that the nearby support as calculated using this 3.63%-real trend-line is also soon to be in the vicinity of the early 2009 price lows, those that resulted from the quick 15% pullback of 2008-2009. I have previously predicted there would be support at those levels for technical and psychological reasons (which technical analysis aficionados will know to be the same thing). I’d expect a temporary increase in buying interest at those prices, as it is likely that a group of prospective buyers will be expecting a floor at the 2009 lows. It wouldn’t be at all surprising to therefore get some support at those levels, and perhaps a bounce. This would result in the ‘right shoulder’ to which Froogle refers. I’d then expect that such support would fail in the months thereafter.

There are at least two other lines of argument that would suggest that price corrections are going to be more extreme than the worst-case 22.5%-drop scenario predicted by the 3.63%-growth trend line:

A. Fundamental analysis.
Prices in Vancouver have very clearly overextended from those determined by fundamental underpinnings. By price:rent and price:income ratios, Vancouver RE was two to three times overvalued at the peak. The average home price is more than 10 times the average income, where international standards judge 3.5 times average income to already represent an overpriced market. As Froogle puts it, even with a 22.5% drop, “houses in Metro Vancouver will still be too damn expensive for average families”. The thing is, no speculative mania ends with such a scenario. In fact, if anything, one would expect that the price correction will take values to levels where families can afford to buy. Long term sustainable prices should be at levels determined by rental yield, plus a modest ownership premium. Vancouver will never be cheap, but it will be a lot less expensive than two to three times fair value.

B. Sentiment.
Some people would be pretty miffed by a 22.5%-real price pullback. But ‘some’ and ‘miffed’ aren’t extreme enough words to herald the end of a decade long mania that has doubled or trebled prices. If such a modest pullback were to represent the end of the mania, that would mean that market participants would still have been rewarded with years of 3.63% per annum growth, over and above the rate of inflation. All this when fixed income rates have been very low. The point is, this would be a mere rap on the knuckles, and speculative manias always, always, end with holders being punished more than that. Manias resolve when speculation is completely ‘wrung out’, and a good proportion of participants are exhausted and disgusted. The bottom arrives with the proverbial ‘whimper’. After such a large and broad mania, sentiment will have to get particularly poor before we hit a final trough, and 22.5%-off simply won’t do the work necessary to achieve that goal.

Obviously, we can’t know with any certainty what trend-line we’ll revert to, or what the sustainable rate of price growth for Vancouver RE will end up being. Our best guesstimate is that Vancouver RE will find a long term trend-line below the 3.63%-real p.a. growth, but above the 0.5%-real predicted by Shiller. This still represents a very broad range, and consequently is not of much use in predicting price targets. Population-growth, income-growth and GDP-growth suggest that we’d quite likely reverting to a more modest 2%- to 2.5%-real long term growth in RE prices. That might not sound like much of a difference, the difference between 3.63% and 2%-2.5%, but it actually has profound effects on price targets: support determined by long-term 2%- to 2.5%-real growth would require prices to drop by about 55%- to 65%-real from current levels.

– vreaa

Postscript:

Caveats/Intricacies/Other:

(a) Whatever trend-line ends up being valid, we’d expect there to be overshoot to the downside to produce the final bear-market trough.

(b) Froogle asks in correspondence: “Did something start to happen in 1972 that has been continuing ever since, causing at least a portion of the baseline elevation?” We know that gold-bugs are going to be hopping up and down on hearing this question, eager to point out that Nixon closed the gold window in 1971. CPI began to rise at that point (see US chart below). But why should real prices start to rise at an even greater rate? The argument would be that there may have been hidden inflation for some assets. In other words, has there been a change due to ‘non-headline’ inflation of hard assets? This argument would still have to explain why prices have run so far ahead of rents.
Take a look at the 1972 effect on CPI in this US chart:
us national price index

(c) Concerning the argument that something may have changed about the way the world sees Vancouver; that Expo and the Olympics and other such forces moved Vancouver from a sleepy provincial port to a 3rd tiered city in global terms, and that such change merits RE price increases. If this were the case, why wouldn’t rents have increased at the same rate as prices, to reflect the argued increased desirability of the city?

(d) In the discussion of the 2010 ‘Fives Charts’ post at VREAA, commenter ‘Best Place On Meth’ stated: “I’m wondering if the entire past quarter century [of RE price growth] has been an aberration.” Indeed, it is even possible that the last half century could represent an aberration. Shiller would suggest that this could be the case (and would likely also point out that such periods of price distortion come and go over the centuries).
Did our bubble actually start much earlier than 2003?
Does the 2001-2012 spec mania action just represent the last two or three stages of a larger bubble blow-off, as the curve became steeper (2001) and steeper (2003) and steeper (2006; 2009-2011)?

Other articles pertaining to the trendline/price-support discussion include:

‘Five Charts: Predicting Future Vancouver Housing Prices’, VREAA, 11 Sep 2010

‘Vancouver Teranet HPI Trendline Analysis’, Jesse [YVRHousing] at Housing Analysis, 30 Mar 2012
Chart from jesse/YVRHousing’s article:
Teranet trend

Moody’s Downgrades Canadian Banks – “High levels of consumer indebtedness and elevated housing prices leave banks more vulnerable”

“Moody’s Investors Service has downgraded the long-term credit ratings of six Canadian banks, including Toronto-Dominion, Bank of Nova Scotia, Bank of Montreal and CIBC. National Bank and Desjardins were also downgraded. The ratings agency lowered each of its ratings one notch, citing high levels of consumer debt and high home prices as threats to the Canadian economy.
“High levels of consumer indebtedness and elevated housing prices leave Canadian banks more vulnerable than in the past to downside risks the Canadian economy faces,” David Beattie, vice-president at Moody’s said in a note.
Canadian consumer debt has risen to a record-high 165 per cent of disposable income in the third quarter of 2012, up from 137 per cent in mid-2007. Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney has repeatedly warned about these levels, but they remain stubbornly high.”

– from ‘Moody’s downgrades 6 Canadian banks’, CBC, 28 Jan 2013 [hat-tip Bally]

You Bought It, Congratulations – “They spent Sunday going to open houses in and around their Kits hood in Van, then fell in love with a place listed just under a million.”

“Jason and Maria are young thirtysomethings who, like most, lust for a house. Four weeks ago they did something they instantly regretted, which this time had nothing to do with blue berries or udder cream.

Per usual, they spent Sunday going to open houses in and around their Kits hood in Van, then fell in love with a place listed just under a million. Of course they couldn’t really afford it, but that never stopped coursing hormones. By the next night they’d contacted the listing agent, drafted an offer and submitted it. The deposit was $15,000 – part of a downpayment they figured would be $50,000 – and they handed over a cheque when the realtor asked for one. Make it certified, he suggested, since it shows you’re serious. They did.

A day later they’d done some heavy budgeting, gone to the bank to visit their loans officer and, most seriously, emailed me [Garth Turner]. “Maria really, really wants this house,” Jason explained, “but after thinking about this and doing the numbers, we’re a little scared. Do you think we should just walk away and, like you say on the blog [greaterfool.ca], wait a year?”

Of course you should walk, silly hormonal, self-destructive, irrational people, I said, letting my feminine side show through. Just tell the agent to stop payment on the deposit cheque before it’s cashed and before the vendors have a chance to sign back.

Unknown to me, the sellers immediately accepted the deal, and the deposit cheque had been certified. So when Jason called the agent – less than 24 hours after signing the offer, thinking that he could back out during a “cooling off’ period – as is the case in BC and other provinces with condos (usually seven days to exit) – he was shocked. “You bought it,” he was told. “Congratulations.”

And they did. Closing’s in seven weeks. They’re freaking.”

– as told by Garth Turner, at greaterfool.ca, 27 Jan 2013

Matthew Klippenstein Looks Back On Being A Vancouver RE Bear Since 2006 – “Although he and his wife earn well above the average household income in Vancouver, they’ve decided to continue renting.”

“This might be of interest to readers; as a Burnaby-ite (and way-premature housing bear) I noted the Canadian housing and debt situations in the first article I wrote for Green Car Reports about electric cars in Canada. [excerpt below]
I don’t want to throw the blog off-topic, but figured the link might be of mild amusement. I guess the older 2006 MacLean’s article reference might qualify under your “delaying buying” category. And if you had one, “premature calls of the top”. 🙂
– Matthew Klippenstein, via e-mail to vreaa, 22 Jan 2013

Is that a housing bubble? A January 2013 cover story in Canada’s national newsmagazine MacLean’s argues that the housing market has become a popping bubble. While the U.S. housing bubble peaked in 2006, Canadian real estate peaked in spring 2012, with household debt reaching levels seen in America at the peak of the U.S. housing market. If Canadian consumers pay down their debt in coming years, the higher up-front costs of electric cars might stifle sales, even relative to 2012. (Full disclosure: the author was quoted in the above-linked magazine seven years ago arguing house prices were a bubble back then. He and his wife used the money saved by renting to purchase their plug-in Prius last fall.)”
‘Plug-In Electric Car Sales In Canada: A 2012 Review’, Matthew Klippenstein, Green Car Reports, 21 Jan 2012

“Every day Matthew Klippenstein, a 30-year-old fuel-cell engineer, goes online to wait for the sky to fall on the housing market. “House prices make me angry,” he says. Although he and his wife earn well above the average household income in Vancouver, they’ve decided to continue renting. “We’d rather be able to enjoy our lives and be able to afford to have kids.”
Klippenstein watches local housing prices on the site RealtyLink. He feels prices are inflated, and bases this view on information he’s gleaned from blogs forecasting a drop, and on the logic of Canadian financial gurus like Eric Sprott. … Klippenstein thinks the market will correct itself in the next 18 months. “When the bubble bursts,” he says, “there will be a lot of people who got swept up in a speculative fever, who’ll lose a lot of money.”

– from ‘Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble’, Kevin Chong, Macleans, 29 May 2006 [yes, two thousand and SIX – ed.]

“Life has worked out very well. I’ve learned to laugh at myself. 😉
We do still rent (the money saved did after all help us get a plug-in car!) and most importantly, are content to do so. Planning to move in the next year or two, since our place is getting a bit small with the three of us. Though admittedly, the problem is more than likely “too much baby stuff” than “not enough square feet”. Timing will somewhat depend on how fast and far the market falls.”

– Matthew Klippenstein, via follow-up e-mail to vreaa, 23 Jan 2013

Thanks for all this, Matthew.
Vancouver was indeed already locked in the jaws of a speculative mania in real estate by 2006.
Earlier, actually.
– vreaa

Matthew Klippenstein blogs at ‘Eclectic Lip‘.

‘Saskatoon Housing Bubble’ Reviews Vancouver RE Fundamentals – “Boom Bubble and Bust”

Kevin at saskatoonhousing bubble has posted the first of a two part review of the Vancouver RE market:
‘The Vancouver Real Estate Market: Booms Bubbles and Busts’ (saskatoonhousingbubble, 25 Jan 2013).
Take a look at the entire article at the site.
Here we repost two of the charts:

Average Vancouver House Price and Average BC Weekly Wage Index Base 1991 =100

Average Vancouver House Price and Average 2 Bed Apartment Rent Index Base 1992 =100

Thanks for the analysis and the post, Kevin.
Vancouver RE is at about twice the price it should be, based on fundamentals such as rental yield and incomes. – vreaa

The Atlantic – “How real is Canada’s housing bubble? More real than any other country’s.”

HousingPrices

“Canada has a new worthwhile initiative. After years of booming prices, that bastion of politeness north of the border is looking to avoid a catastrophic housing bust for something more, well, boring. Initiatives don’t get more worthwhile, and perhaps not more difficult considering Canada just might have the biggest housing bubble in the world right now.
Not exactly boring, eh?
The distinction between higher prices and bubbly prices isn’t as subjective as it might sound. Like any other financial asset, there should be a fairly steady relationship between the price of housing and the stream of income — rent — it produces. Should be. The chart above, from The Economist, looks at the price-to-rent ratios across different countries, and measures how under-or-overvalued housing is, with negative numbers corresponding to the former and positive ones to the latter.”


“..by keeping rates where they are and slowly tightening mortgage requirements, Canada hopes to engineer a more gradual price decline that won’t set off a vicious circle. In the best case, prices wouldn’t fall, except below the rate of inflation, so that real prices decline without hitting household net worths. This strategy is hardly unique — China has done the same the past few years — but it has the very Canadian name of “macroprudential regulation”.

– from ‘The Biggest Housing Bubble in the World Is in … Canada?’, The Atlantic, 25 Jan 2013

Yes, we have a big RE bubble.
Noteworthy, again, for the mention in the international press.
It is our considered opinion that a soft landing, particularly in markets such as Vancouver’s, is an impossibility.
Our market has been completely dependent on rising prices to draw in buyers.
Stagnant or falling prices will beget falling prices. Yes, that’s a circular, self-reinforcing effect, and that is why the downdraft, once established, will be so powerful.
– vreaa

“They transformed an old Greek couple’s house into a 3 suite main house and coach house. 8 months ago they came up for sale, at a little over $1M ask on each. Now, all 4 are for rent with the same RE company that was trying to sell them.”

“House near me where an old Greek couple lived sold over a year ago for a couple million to a developer. They transformed it into a 3 suite main house and coach house. About eight months ago they came up for sale, averaging a little over a million ask on each.
This weekend I was out for a walk and I saw that all four are now for rent with the same real-estate company that was trying to sell them before.
Yikes! I’m thinking that developer bet the farm on current market softness being only temporary.
Obviously even the professionals are delirious.”

Anonymous at VCI 20 Jan 2013 10:13pm

What would each unit have to rent for to merit the $1M (each!) price tag?
What price would be realistic for each unit, given the likely rental income?
– vreaa

Erroneous Theories For Falling Prices #7 – Talk Of Bubbles Caused The Crash

“Little was heard of housing bubbles in Canada up to about a year ago. Now, predictions of crashes are on the front cover of Maclean’s and other publications. One might wonder if we are talking ourselves into a housing miasma, even though the fundamentals don’t point to one.” …
“…some media sources are now painting a dire prognosis for Canadian housing. It brings to mind the 2012 paper, “What Have They Been Thinking? Home Buyer Behavior in Hot and Cold Markets,” written by Mr. Shiller and co-authors, Karl E. Case and Anne Thompson.
The paper looks at press coverage leading up to the U.S. housing collapse and documents the increasing frequency of articles depicting U.S. housing as a bubble. June of 2005 was particularly busy, with cover stories in the Economist, Barron’s, and Time Magazine.
Mr. Shiller and co-authors argue the prominence of the bubble theme produced “a turning point in public thinking” that led to prices turning down, beginning in 2006. A similar point was made by Mr. Shiller in a 2006 paper, in which he wrote: “there are reasons to suspect that the price changes … are related to public swings in opinions rather than fundamentals.”
Could Canada similarly be talking itself into a housing crash (possibly followed by a financial crisis and years of stagnation)?”
– from ‘Is Canada talking itself into a housing crisis?’, Larry MacDonald, Globe and Mail, 22 Jan 2013

Actually, the fundamentals point to a speculative mania and the increasing talk of bubbles is very appropriate. Sometimes a bubble is a bubble.
Besides, a large, broad, healthy RE market would never crash based on unfounded chatter.
For someone to suggest, in 2013, that the US housing collapse was the result of baseless sentiment change is ridiculous, and to use a US parallel to attempt to argue for Canadian housing strength is more ridiculous still.
No surprise, however, to see pleas to ‘Stay Calm and Carry On’.
When all is said and done, some will blame media hysteria for the RE market collapse.
– vreaa

Regarding this series:
There is only one BIG reason for falling prices in Vancouver RE: the speculative mania is over.
That is all you need to know to explain the price action that will play out over the next few years.
On the way up we had people attributing price strength to all sorts of bizarre and invalid causes: the Olympics, running out of land, etc. On the way down we expect similarly bizarre arguments for price drops; commentators will offer many erroneous theories as to why prices are falling. We’re already beginning to see them, and the crash has barely commenced.
We’ll collect them; please submit new examples you come across. – vreaa

“Built into this situation is the eventual and inevitable fall. … Something, it matters little what – although it will always be much debated – triggers the ultimate reversal.”
– John Kenneth Galbraith, in ‘A Short History of Financial Euphoria’

#1 – Climate Change Caused The Crash
“Prices will continue to fall, as outside buyers from other Provinces such as Ontario, Alberta and Manitoba finally realize that climate change has now become an important issue in British Columbia. What was once an enviable temperature and small secret now has become a drag, as the winter, spring and summer months are now cooler and wetter than before.”
thinkandact, commenting at the Globe and Mail, 2 Aug 2012

#2 – The Conservatives Attacked The Vancouver Housing Market And Caused The Crash
“The reality is that because banks also own investment dealers, their CEOs would prefer to see more Canadian money flowing into the equity markets rather than into real estate. … I wouldn’t be surprised if Prime Minister Stephen Harper, a trained economist, has been influenced by a Zambian-born economist in crafting mortgage-amortization policies that may kill the Vancouver housing market and create significant hardship.”
Charlie Smith, Georgia Straight, 3 Aug 2012

#3 – Vancouver RE Bears Caused The Crash
“The common theme I see in your “anecdotes” is YOU! There is no shift in the “general mood”. YOU are the catalyst bringing down the mood among your friends. I can only hope you don’t have too many friends, or you will singlehandedly bring down the market.”
‘Anonymous’, at VCI 21 Aug 2012, in response to ‘Makaya’ posting two stories of people becoming bearish on the Vancouver market

#4 – An Invisible Force Caused The Crash
“An invisible force has guided Buyers and Sellers of Vancouver homes. An unprecedented number of Sellers have listed their homes for sale while at the same time many Vancouver home buyers have decided that they are ‘not buying now’. This collective behavior is often called a ‘murmuration’. It is fair to say that human behavior is at times shaped by invisible forces which lead us to behave in ways that may not be in our best interest.”
‘Invisible Force Guides Buyers and Sellers of Vancouver Real Estate?’, Larry Yatkowsky, 13 Sep 2012

#5 – Tightening Of Mortgage Rules Caused The Crash
“The real key thing for the [weakening of the] ownership markets was the reduction in the maximum amortization from 30 years to 25 years.”
Cameron Muir, chief economist at the BCREA, ‘Mortgage rules exacerbating B.C. housing sales slump’, Vancouver Sun, 17 Sep 2012

#6 – Toronto Bankers Caused The Crash
“According to several people, it appears that Toronto bankers are far less keen to underwrite projects unless developers can pony up more money up front to justify the risk.
So no matter how much the city tries to encourage the construction of homes for sale to middle-income home buyers, it won’t happen if financiers aren’t prepared to open up their wallets to developers. “The banks are holding their feet to the fire,” Cameron McNeill, president of MAC Marketing Solutions, revealed.”
‘Toronto bankers put the squeeze on Vancouver real-estate developers’, Charlie Smith, Georgia Straight, 11 Oct 2012

#7 – Talk Of Bubbles Caused The Crash
“Little was heard of housing bubbles in Canada up to about a year ago. Now, predictions of crashes are on the front cover of Maclean’s and other publications. One might wonder if we are talking ourselves into a housing miasma, even though the fundamentals don’t point to one.”
‘Is Canada talking itself into a housing crisis?’, Larry MacDonald, Globe and Mail, 22 Jan 2013

“Now they are waiting for spring “when sales will pick up” and they’ve already bought air-line tickets for June, so they “must sell”.

“Yesterday I met a neighbour who is an immigrant from my hometown. I know that their family was going to move back because her husband couldn’t find a job in the financial field and currently works as a tennis instructor. They had tickets for September, but couldn’t sell their townhouse since last spring and so they returned the tickets. They also relisted their home several times during last year, but gave up in November.
Now they are waiting for spring “when sales will pick up” and already bought tickets for June, so they “must sell”. I haven’t said a word. What could I say?”

Aleksey at VCI 21 Jan 2013 11:03am

You could say: “Steadily drop your ask price until you hit a bid.”
That’d help.
– vreaa

Spot The Speculators #97 – “We are moving to Burnaby in March, so we decided to keep our house in North Vancouver and put it up for rent.”

craigslist

“We are moving to Burnaby on March, so we decided to keep our place and give it [for] rent, it has never been rented before, very well cared and Very nice designed two levels, 3_Bed, 2_Bath, 1 seperate entry Den, located in one of the nice and quite neighborhood.
You have the option to choose(Furnished: $2700 or unfurnished: $2500).”
craigslist ad, 21 Jan 2013 [hat-tip Guy Smiley on VCI]

The ‘speculator’ classification is based largely on the assumption that they have purchased in Burnaby.
– vreaa

Globe And Mail Features Kerrisdale Condo Sold For Same Price As In 2007

“2105 WEST 42 ND AVE., NO. 212, VANCOUVER
ASKING PRICE $458,800
SELLING PRICE $424,000
PREVIOUS SELLING PRICES $420,000 (2007); $206,738 (1995)”


“This two-bedroom suite was on the market at $524,800 for over a year. But once the price was lowered to $458,800 last fall, agent Keith Roy saw an opportunity to negotiate an even better deal for his homebuying clients, who had already seen 20 other properties in Vancouver and Burnaby.”

– from ‘Kerrisdale condo knocked down $100,000’, Globe and Mail, 21 Jan 2013 [hat-tip VMD at VCI]

Condo Ad Booklet – “The Provincial Government will send you a tax free cheque for $10,000 if you buy a qualifying condo by March 31, 2013 and you are a first-time home buyer.”

IMG_1642

IMG_1641

– above from a set of images sent by ‘Ordinary Average’, via e-mail, 22 Jan 2013, and who adds:
“Today in my mailbox I found the following booklet. Pages 4-5
state “Borrow the down-payment from your favourite uncle and pay him back when you get the $10,000!”. Condo advertisements have become a weekly occurrence in my mailbox lately, this one blows me away.”

UPDATE [hat-tip bullwhip]:

7869358.bin
Doug Bigg and his daughter Krista check out a condo developer’s brochure that makes unauthorized use of the provincial logo.

“A major condo developer has been reprimanded by the B.C. government for the unauthorized use of the provincial logo in a promotional brochure for a new development in Langley.
Quadra Homes agreed Thursday to delete all references of the government’s registered logo from its website and to destroy the remaining promotional brochures for the development, named Yorkson Creek, which carried the B.C. logo on its front and back page.
The issue came to head on Wednesday after The Province contacted the Ministry of Finance asking about the 28-page, glossy brochure, which began arriving on doorsteps in the Langley and Abbotsford areas within the last two weeks.
“British Columbia [the logo is used] is handing out $10,000 in cash … ” read the cover and back of the brochure.
“Borrow the down payment from your uncle and pay him back when you get the $10,000,” read another page.
Another read: “We have the qualifying condos and will fill out the paper work for you.”
The $10,000 refers to the government’s first-time homebuyer’s bonus, which was detailed in the first few pages of the brochure. The rest of the pages are dedicated to the benefits of buying at Yorkson Creek.
“It is not just misleading, it is wrong,” said Doug Bigg, who received the brochure last week. “I interpreted it as taxpayers’ dollars being used to advertise condos for a multi-million dollar corporation. If I thought that, then I’m sure most other people would think that.”
But the government had nothing to do with the brochure, the Ministry of Finance said. And on Thursday, the company was ordered to remove all unauthorized references of the logo.”

– from ‘Major developer reprimanded over unauthorized use of provincial logo to help sell condos’, The Province, 24 Jan 2013

“Our landlord subsidized our housing costs to the tune of $200,000 cumulative over 5 years.”

“I left Vancouver. Lived in the same amazing apartment for 5 years while dear Landlord subsidized our housing costs to the tune of $200,000 cumulative over 5 years. After 5 years of no rent increase, you would think that on leaving they would be ready to raise it !!!!
Wrong – – – –
Rent is down 8.5% on a nominal basis, 20% on inflation adjusted bases and if you are taking out strata/taxes, rent is down even more!!!
I would so love to go back to it – but now at that price point there is serious inventory and competition so the landlord is being aggressive to get the vacancy time as low as possible.
Did we throw money away on rent? No !! We lived it up, had a great place, and saved $200,000 compared to the cost of owning.”

yvr2zrh at VCI January 19th, 2013 at 1:03 am

“I know three ‘middle class’ families that can’t afford gas. They all live in million dollar houses.”

“I know three ‘middle class’ families that can’t afford gas. Two of them have put their cars away and another said quite frankly that they can’t afford gas.
They all live in million dollar houses. One is even trying to sell their 1.8 million dollar house. No job loss, no divorce, no changes – just too much debt.”

Anonymous at whispersfromtheedgeoftherainforest 21 Jan 2013 10:09am

“I was told that it costs the developer an average of $1,000 a month to keep each completed unsold unit in the development. Ouch!”

“A few anecdotes from today’s trip to Surrey:
-prices on brand new townhouses are (and I quote the sales personnel) “not set in stone. Not anymore” Also “there’s room to move there” as well as “the days of pre-sales are gone”. Offers are welcome – low ball offers are expected.
-I was told that it costs the developer an average of $1,000 a month to keep each completed unsold unit in the development. Ouch! So private sellers can supposedly just hold off and take their places off the market “for now” – developers… not so much.
-majority of units that I saw today are now priced ~5% below the original prices that were announced last fall. Plus, like I said “there’s room to move”

vanpire at VCI January 19th, 2013 at 7:22 pm

Universities Agree: No Bubble – “There never was a housing bubble. So it hasn’t burst, because it never existed.”

“There are articles saying we’re going to have the same kind of crash we had in the United States, but that’s not going to happen,” says Jane Londerville, a real estate and housing adviser at the University of Guelph.
James McKellar, academic director of the Real Property Program at York University’s Schulich School of Business, is even more blunt. “First of all, there never was a housing bubble. So it hasn’t burst, because it never existed.”

– from ‘No bubble, no trouble’, David Hodges, MoneySense, 16 Jan 2013

Reminiscent of:
“You can’t burst a bubble that wasn’t there.” – Tsur Somerville, Director of the UBC Centre for Urban Economics, Sauder School of Business, The Province, 14 Sep 2012

For a collection of related quotes from various market participants, see:
‘What Bubble?’

“I was talking to a retired teacher today in Vancouver who owns a leaky condo. She says “You wait till spring arrives prices are going up”.

“I was talking to a retired female teacher today in Vancouver who owns a leaky condo. She says “you wait till spring arrives prices are going up”. She thinks Van will not see any further declines. I asked her where she gets her info from, she said, “experience”. It would seem she doesn’t realize we are in a different world than the one we experienced during the last boom and bust at least as far as I understand.”
AprilNewwest at greaterfool.ca 20 Jan 2013 6:25pm

Flipping Into The Teeth Of The Storm

4464 W 7th

4464 West 7th Ave, Vancouver West-side (Point Grey)
2,094 sqft SFH; built 1978; 33×112 lot

Listed 22 Jun 2011, Ask Price $1,698,000
Sold 28 Jun 2011, Sale price $1,826,000

Listed 16 Jan 2013, Ask Price $2,190,000

Remember the heady days of 2011, where SFHs sold over-ask?
This flipper appears to have disregarded market signs and is fishing for a big catch.
They have listed at 20% above 2011 sales price, whereas most SFH sales are currently at 5% to 10% or more below 2011-2012 peak prices.
This’ll be one to watch.
– vreaa

Spot The Speculator #96 – “In 2008, when I was 28 years old, I had saved $70,000, enough for a 20% down payment on a triplex in Toronto. I moved into one unit and the rent from the other two units paid for the mortgage and utilities.”

“I’ve always been very focused in my life. I was born a triplet and knew from an early age my parents wouldn’t be able to pay for many extras, or for postsecondary education for all of us. But I was determined to go to university and to buy a home of my own. So in high school I started working as a waitress for 20 hours a week. During the summers I took as many shifts as possible, often working seven days straight. I was a workaholic and should have cut back because my grades were suffering, but I persevered.”

“I earned enough to pay for tuition by living at home with my parents and commuting to York University. It wasn’t easy. I didn’t have a car so I used buses to make the two-hour journey to York and back each day. At one point I considered buying a car but was shocked when my dad showed me how expensive it was. I kept commuting every day for four years. Believe me, it was really depressing. I would get home every night and it was cold and dark, and I was tired. But I knew I was saving for my big goal of owning an investment property, which kept me going.”

“After graduating with an English degree in 2006, I had no student debt and $20,000 in savings from my waitressing job. Then I got a lucky break-I landed a job as an administrative assistant, paying $32,000 a year in downtown Toronto. In 2008, when I was 28 years old, I had saved $70,000, enough for a 20% down payment on a triplex in Little Italy. I moved into one unit and the rent from the other two units paid for the mortgage and utilities. Last year, I got married and my husband moved into the apartment with me. I’ve never doubted the triplex was one of the best financial decisions I’ve ever made.”

“The key for me was tracking my spending in a journal to see exactly where every penny was going so I knew where I could cut back and add to my savings. Most years I saved 70% of my earned income, which I used to pay for university and for the down payment on the triplex. By living at home a little longer than most people I was able to really beef up my down payment. That’s made me truly independent a lot more quickly than many of my friends who are still mired in debt.”

“Now my goal is to pay off the mortgage on the property as quickly as possible. I’ve done some renos over the years and I’m putting $500 a month extra on my mortgage to pay it off faster. The triplex’s value has also gone up. I bought it for $350,000 and it’s worth $450,000 today.”

– Angie Oliveira, 32, Toronto, as featured in ‘How to become a landlord’, Julie Cazzin, MoneySense 16 Jan 2013 [hat-tip proteus, who sent this link by e-mail and added “Saving 20k waitressing is a heroic accomplishment.”]

Angie has an admirably proactive savings habit. Because of this ability, she will quite likely do fine in the long run, but we suspect this will end up occurring despite her RE investment, not because of it.
Yes, she is describing a ‘cash-flow positive’ property (something unavailable in our city in 2008), but we’d like to see more of the math before being sure about that. Also, there is downside risk of increased mortgage rates, downward pressure on rents (TO condo glut), and unexpected expenses.
She bought a few years prior to the peak of a multigenerational bubble in real estate. If property prices drop 33% from the peak, she’ll likely still be able to maintain her ownership, but she will, on paper, have lost her profits and her downpayment. This is something we’d imagine would be particularly painful for her, given the hard work it has taken for her to accumulate her savings gains.
In that regard, it is interesting to note that it took her many years of extreme saving to accumulate $70K, but her RE purchase then rose in value by $100K from 2008 to 2012. In fact, she ‘made’ more on paper in RE than she did in entire income those 4 years, when taxation is taken into account. This is a good example of how RE price rises through the speculative mania have perverted the way in which people consider the relative value of real estate, money, work and saving; and how homes have become financial instruments as much as places of shelter.
– vreaa

“Person two said that the apparent downturn in sales and values in Vancouver is largely illusionary because it is only real estate at the top end of the spectrum that has slowed, which is artificially skewing the statistics in the mid-range.”

“Last night I was listening to the following discussion about the Vancouver housing market. It went basically like this. Person one said that real estate is coming down in Vancouver. Person two said that the apparent downturn in sales and values in Vancouver is largely illusionary because it is only real estate at the top end of the spectrum that has slowed, which is artificially skewing the statistics in the mid-range, and that homes in the midrange and below are still selling well and have not slowed. Is this accurate? Personally, I was going to say that he was not correct but I did not have the exact statistics to back up my claim. Where are the statistics on each market price segment?”
Mark W at greaterfool.ca on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:25 pm

Not so long ago we heard the reverse argument: that the high end market was special, and resilient to price drops.
Each sector of the market, whether categorized by price range or by geographical area, may take different price trajectories peak to trough. Condos or SFH, Richmond or West Vancouver, Central or Peripheral – price paths will have different shapes.
Regardless, in the end, each sector will have lost very similar large percentages. No subgroup will be spared.
We continue to anticipate 50%-66% drops in real prices peak to trough, across all property types.
– vreaa

Property Price Fluctuation In A Highly Desirable City

nyc csmonitor

Example 1:
Refuses offer of $80M in 2008; Accepts offer of $37M in 2009

“After shlomo Ben-Haim, an Israeli scientist-entrepreneur, made millions selling a medical-device company he’d founded with his brother, a London-based lawyer, he agreed to invest $28.9 million of the proceeds in a nine-room, four-bedroom penthouse on the 40th floor of 15 Central Park West, the Robert A.M. Stern–designed luxury condominium in Manhattan—when it was still just a hole in the ground in 2005. But months after closing, in spring 2008, Ben-Haim put it back on the market—priced at a whopping $80 million.
With its private elevator landing, 14-foot ceilings, and sweeping Hudson River and Central Park views, the apartment quickly attracted a buyer, but the threat of a huge tax bite for selling less than a year after buying convinced Ben-Haim to spurn the offer. When Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy that fall, Ben-Haim took his penthouse off the market. Finally, in February 2009, it was offered again at the recession-reduced price of $47.5 million, and was soon sold for $37 million to a limited liability company named after the Russian city Novgorod.”

Example 2:
10% nominal loss over 40 years

“Steinberg’s presence at 740 was first noted in The New York Times in 1981, 12 years after he bought his 37-room duplex there for $225,000 —$25,000 less than it cost new in 1929— and then went unmentioned until 1994, the same year Kravis made noise, too, for moving to a new ballroom-equipped apartment at 625 Park, purchased for $15 million. His tenure at 740 had gone unreported until he moved out.”

– from ‘Where the Money Lives: New York Real Estate Today’, Michael Gross, Newsweek, 14 Jan 2013

Even in highly desirable cities, RE prices can fall.
And, coming off an historic bubble, prices can take decades to recover.
– vreaa

G&M Likens Housing To Income Trusts – “The blowback if housing falls hard will be worse because homes are widely believed to be a special kind of asset that benefits the entire population.”

“If the slowdown in the housing market worsens, Mr. Flaherty will be blamed as he was after effectively killing income trusts in a surprise announcement made on Halloween night in 2006. The Minister, and his government, will be accused of being bad economic managers if the housing sector falters. But what people will really be saying is: “How dare you, Mr. Flaherty?”
People are funny about financial assets that soar in value, be they income trusts or houses. They see them as being special in some way, a phenomenon of nature that should be left untouched so as to allow folks to make some serious money.
But assets that soar in value are the ones we need to worry about most. Everything in finance is cyclical, which means there are ups and downs. The more an asset rises in price, the more vulnerable it is to a nasty pullback that causes damage both to individuals and the economy.
Mr. Flaherty moved to cool the overheated housing market last summer by capping the maximum amortization period at 25 years for people with down payments of less than 20 per cent. The impact of this move so far has been negative, but not alarmingly so. House sales were off 17.4 per cent in December on a year-over-year basis, but prices were up 1.6 per cent, on average.

Mr. Flaherty snuffed out trusts by announcing the government would start taxing them in 2011. In response, most trusts converted into dividend-paying corporations that pay far less cash than they used to. The complaining from investors about the demise of trusts was long and loud, although it never seemed to hurt the Conservatives in an election.
The blowback if housing falls hard will be worse because homes are widely believed to be a special kind of asset that benefits the entire population. It’s an easy impression to come away with after watching the rules shift over the years for home-buying down payments.
Decades ago, buyers had to put down a minimum 10 per cent and amortize over 25 years at most. The minimum down payment briefly fell to zero a few years ago and now it’s 5 per cent. Amortization periods expanded to as much as 40 years for a time, before being reeled back.

Housing’s stature has been further inflated by its cultural and economic importance. Multiple TV channels celebrate housing, and a fair chunk of the retail industry is directly home related (think of HomeSense, Home Depot, Home Outfitters, Home Hardware, Sears Home and the like). Also, housing-related spending accounts for close to 20 per cent of economic output. What’s good for housing is thought to be good for all of us.
Mostly, though, housing is thought to be special because of its value as an investment over the past couple of decades. As mentioned in a recent column (online at tgam.ca/Dlfb), housing prices nationally have risen about 5.6 per cent annually since 1980.
After five years of up and down stock markets, Canadians have become very possessive about their gains in housing. If housing prices plunge, they’ll be looking for someone to blame. That would be Mr. Flaherty, even if he was just doing his job.”

– from ‘First income trusts, now housing? Careful, Mr. Flaherty’, Rob Carrick, The Globe and Mail, 16 Jan 2013.

We like the way that this article emphasizes the ‘special’ place that housing has achieved through the 10 year national housing bubble. Nowhere more special than in our own Vancouver, of course.
A few thoughts:
1. Flaherty’s mortgage rule changes in 2012 were simply a slight tightening of restrictions that he himself had allowed to become far too loose in prior years.
2. When Flaherty announced the income trust rule changes in 2006, he exempted one class of income trust – those in real estate!
3. In trying to quantify the difference between the effects of changing the tax laws of income trusts, and tightening mortgage rules, it would be good to know how many Canadian’s had how much of their net-worth in income trusts in 2006. (Can any readers direct us to such data?) My hunch is that, even though that move was significant (and caused a massive brouhaha), it doesn’t come anywhere close to the magnitude of significance of mortgage tightening. Over 70% of Canadians own their homes; a large percentage have the majority of their net-worth in their homes; a significant percentage have their net-worth highly leveraged to the market value of their homes. In addition there are innumerable knock-on economic effects of a falling housing market.
The unwinding of the RE spec mania will completely eclipse memories of the 2006 income trust tax changes.
– vreaa

Now THAT Is A Laneway House

oWBlN

KTfWk

ePCDg

LtwLl

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71jEB

– found at http://imgur.com/a/ny4uA, by proteus (the poster with many names).

Somewhere in Europe, it seems.
Inexpensive, but sound workmanship. ($280K? We think not.)
Pleasant interior.
Non-leaking tiled roof.
Soul.
– vreaa

“I have homes in Canada and the US. I have a paper loss in Florida but still have a home.”

“I have homes in Canada and the US. Here in Florida there was a massive “correction” which led to total bankruptcy of a lot of people, huge losses by banks and a huge mess. I am not too sympathetic with people who borrow over their heads but Canada is far better off as it is than here. Fortunately both my houses were bought with cash I actually worked for and saved so I have a paper loss in Florida but still have a home. Others are not so lucky.”
– Skitty commenting at G&M, January 12, 2013 10:45 AM

This individual is not leveraged, and it seems they will be able to sit tight through any price fluctuation, if they wish.
But we know there are Canadians who have used HELOCs against their Canadian properties to buy US RE, and we wonder how many will be pushed to the brink by the very large price drops we anticipate in Canadian RE.
– vreaa

“One agent is telling him to drop his price drastically to beat reduced prices in the Spring. The other agent is telling him that he has to keep his price above $1 mil to attract foreign buyers.”

“Just talked to a friend trying to decide which agent to use to sell his house in central Vancouver. One agent is telling him to drop his price drastically to beat reduced prices in the Spring. The other agent is telling him that he has to keep his price above $1 mil to attract foreign buyers. Still too many agents with the former pitch and too many people who want to believe it.”
pathcontrolmonk at greaterfool.ca 17 Jan 2013 at 10:11 pm