“An IT recruiter told me there are almost no quality people. He sees the same applicants again and again. He said that he has never seen such a shortage.”

Posted on 13 October 2011 | 49 Comments

“A software developer that worked on one of my projects has moved to Ontario. Another one announced that his wife is pregnant and once the baby arrives, they are moving back to Europe.
In the past few years, I have been looking for several software developers for my business. The positions were mostly for senior or at least intermediate developers and were advertised on craigslist, BCTechnology and Monster. The funny thing was that for every single position from all sources, the pool of applicants was virtually the same – same people and most of them were not very skilled. Out of those few that were skilled, some left or are leaving soon.
Recently, I talked to an IT recruiter. He told me basically the same thing – there are almost no quality people and he sees the same applicants again and again. He said that he has never seen such a shortage.
So there is the silver lining – if you are a quality software developer, it should be easy for you to find a job, because many quality people have left.
However, salaries for these positions are still lower than in Toronto or Montreal. That may eventually change in bigger companies. I doubt that small companies can afford to pay more, because the owners need to make money too.”
– bubbly, at VREAA 12 Oct 2011 5:47pm

This entry was posted in 07. Avoiding Vancouver, 12. Effects of Development, 14. Social Effects of the Boom, 15. Misallocation of Resources and tagged Anecdotes, British Columbia, Bubble, Canada, Economy, Employment, Housing, Real Estate, Vancouver. Bookmark the permalink.

49 responses to ““An IT recruiter told me there are almost no quality people. He sees the same applicants again and again. He said that he has never seen such a shortage.””

Michael | 13 October 2011 at 8:57 am | Reply

Ah, that would explain why I have recruiters pinging me for jobs that I haven’t done in almost a decade. Guess the market is thin. But yes, pay rate here is a joke compared to Toronto or Calgary (or Edmonton).
- jesse | 13 October 2011 at 9:27 am | Reply
  
  Hey… here’s an idea… why not pay more?
  
  Because a good IT guy just can’t make more than the CEO. It would be… well.. unheard of.
  - Michael | 13 October 2011 at 9:44 am |
    
    Well yeah, that’s part of it. I had a manager once tell me that I was making the same as him was “just wrong” because he was the manager.
    
    Was an old Nortel guy… How are they doing these days again?
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 10:56 am |
    
    To be fair, when I was contracting, I did have jobs in Vancouver where I made more money than the CEO.
    
    But really, smaller companies can’t afford to pay much simply because the owners need to live off something too and life in Vancouver is not cheap. Another reason is that companies are used to much lower rates from the past.
  - Julian Lee | 13 October 2011 at 11:28 am |
    
    Hmm, it would take a hell of an increase for an IT guy to make more than the CEO.
  - matt | 13 October 2011 at 4:19 pm |
    
    He can if the CEO is shit.
space889 | 13 October 2011 at 9:12 am | Reply

Have you thought maybe the reason there is no qualified people for intermediate to senior people is because well nobody is giving training the juniors people or expecting applicants to have 5 years experiences on technologies that are only 3 years only? I work in the software industry and frankly I believe this skill shortage is a load of BS. The biggest problems I see are not that there aren’t enough qualified people but rather employees wouldn’t invest any in training and developing employees and extremely narrow minded. For example, if a jobs calls for a C# developer with 5 years experience and 5 other technologies, no junior or intermediate person with less than 5 years C# experience or lack 1 or 2 of the other technologies will be considered. If someone with 8 years Java experiences applies, s/he will also be excluded because they don’t have C# never mind C# is pretty much based off Java. Similarly if it’s also unlikley the company is training the more junior employees with the required technologies if their current job does not call for it, or preparing them so they can become the much needed intermediate or senior people. Off course then the companies go crying about lack of talent and skills and how we need to have more immigrants even though there are more than enough out of work/under-employed software developers/engineers right here! Without a mentality change in employers there will always be shortage of skilled labour and you will always be constrainted in growth and competitiveness. Spend some $$ and invest in people! Geez.
- bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 11:01 am | Reply
  
  Fact: Junior people are expensive. Only a large company can afford to hire them and then wait 3 to 6 months until the developer becomes productive.
  Small companies don’t have the resources to spend on training and thus they need more senior people.
  - Julian Lee | 13 October 2011 at 11:29 am |
    
    It is sometimes much cheaper to hire a junior guy and train him than hire an intermediate guy.
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 12:05 pm |
    
    “Sometimes” is the key word and it implies risk.
    
    Vancouver has lots of small software companies and a few mid to large sized companies.
    Hiring a junior is always risky and even a good junior requires training. Large companies or even some mid-sized companies can afford to hire a limited number and train them.
    However, small companies must manage their risks much more carefuly.
    There are three types of small software companies / startups in Vancouver:
    1) A bunch of guys with an idea, enthusiasm and NO money. This is the majority! Obviously, there is no chance for them to hire anybody unless the software developer accepts “equity”
    
    2) Entrepreneurs who saved money for years and then invested it in their own business. These people tend to very careful about who they hire and if they hire a junior developer, they will learn the hard way how expensive it could be.
    
    3) Companies that received angel / venture funding. To get this kind of funding, the company must have a business plan with pretty specific specs for spending. Unless the investor is stupid or has too much money, he will require a monthly or quartely breakdown of cost. Again, this will make them think twice about hiring juniors, although it’s not impossible.
    
    The clue for junior software people is to focus on larger companies or lower their salary expectations.
    
    However, on the higher end, there IS a serious skills shortage and it can not be easily replaced by ambitious juniors.
  - matt | 13 October 2011 at 4:22 pm |
    
    And this is why Vancouver’s dev industry is such a joke. You’re mitigating risk that would suffocate a start up in the bay area before they could even reach a first round of VC funding.
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 5:01 pm |
    
    matt, could you elaborate? You think that startups in Bay area are using junior developers before they get VC funding? If you think so, I say that you have no idea…
Michael | 13 October 2011 at 9:24 am | Reply

The biggest problems I see are not that there aren’t enough qualified people but rather employees wouldn’t invest any in training and developing employees

Actually that is true, the training budget even in large companies like IBM has been severely slashed, not only in Vancouver but pretty much anywhere.

On the flipside, mentoring takes time and resources, as most companies purposefully “underhire” it’s not easy for people to be mentored as there aren’t enough hours in the day.

In the long run this will bite the country as a whole in the ass, until then though, they’ll ship things that aren’t required to be done locally off to far flung places like India and Brazil (as it is done in my job, PMs are in India, Server Teams in Brazil and Purchasing is in China).
Rollie | 13 October 2011 at 9:33 am | Reply

I just read this article in another thread.

I here stories of professionals leaving. Are these just tales? Is this wrong?

“Some dispute claims that young families and professionals are leaving in droves, insisting the stats don’t support it. And indeed, the proportion of people aged 20 to 40 in Vancouver lines up with the rest of the province”.
- jesse | 13 October 2011 at 10:06 am | Reply
  
  Remember the “brain drain” stories from the ’90s? Low Canadian dollar and higher salaries Stateside meant local companies couldn’t compete and the “best and the brightest” left, supposedly in droves. Now that the US economy is in trouble, the Canadian dollar is strong, and wages are growing, there are still stories of people leaving.
  
  Maybe they’re just not “into” Vancouver. I think they should see other cities for a while. It’s not Vancouver, it’s them. They need some time… for “me”.
  
  Don’t take it the wrong way. Plenty of fish in the sea.
  - jesse | 13 October 2011 at 10:22 am |
    
    BTW that’s what happens when you date an addict. It’s hard to break up without breaking some plates, having your spare change stolen, and being called all sorts of shameful names. The vitriol in the anecdotes of those leaving Vancouver is interesting. I don’t know if any other city can have such an effect on an otherwise nice person.
  - Jeff Murdock | 13 October 2011 at 10:24 pm |
    
    The US is experiencing high unemployment primarily for unskilled workers. For skilled workers, unemployment is quite low, and salaries are much higher than in Canada, at least for the fields I’m familiar with. I think this is why braindrain persists; it’s not simply that the emigrants were “not into” Vancouver.
- Royce McCutcheon | 13 October 2011 at 10:27 am | Reply
  
  Any response to Michael’s comment below?
  
  Also, it would be interesting to know when those proportional numbers for 20-40 year olds were obtained. From my personal experience, I’ve seen a seismic shift in attitude RE: Vancouver cost-of-living from the 2008/09 low point onwards. It seems intuitive that when prices only dip to still-very high prices and then proceed go up at a rate ~10% yoy for a couple years… people are more likely to give up and consider other options.
Michael | 13 October 2011 at 9:34 am | Reply

“Some dispute claims that young families and professionals are leaving in droves, insisting the stats don’t support it. And indeed, the proportion of people aged 20 to 40 in Vancouver lines up with the rest of the province”.

Actually that is not good news as the writer likes to think. Why? Because Vancouver has a “young person appeal”, so you would expect more young people here than in other parts. Two large Universities alone should increase the number of the 20 somethings in this town. That the numbers aren’t higher than in other areas is actually an indication that people ARE leaving.
matt | 13 October 2011 at 9:38 am | Reply

I’ve got another theory. If you’re any good at development you would have started your own company or you are contracting yourself out as a mercenary. The only coders working for businesses are kids cutting their teeth at EA and worthless baby boomer cobol guys.
- bikemike | 13 October 2011 at 10:04 am | Reply
  
  Hey now, that’s not very nice 🙂
  
  I work for a business because I’m lazy, not because I’m stupid!
  - matt | 13 October 2011 at 4:23 pm |
    
    Yes, that’s why BC’s economy is a joke. Sloth.
  - bikemike | 13 October 2011 at 8:02 pm |
    
    I think it’s more than that. Even a startup requires employees. I know a few people involved in the startup game – some are winging it on their own capital, some on other people’s capital. Some successful, some not. Depending on where you are financially and life-wise, it may make more sense to take a steady pay cheque now instead of the possibility of large gains later.
    
    With all of that said, Vancouver is a pretty piss-poor place for tech jobs, imo. Personally, I’m actually torn, because I keep getting pitched on moving back out east to Ottawa for better job prospects, but I’m at an age where I’m concerned that some of what I can do now, I won’t be able to in 5-10 years. On the other hand, I’m actually interested in consulting work, but at the moment, the steady pay cheque wins.
- MM | 13 October 2011 at 10:26 am | Reply
  
  The recruiter is likely hiring both permanent and contract position, so he should be seeing all the “mercenary” coders as well.
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 2:09 pm |
    
    Correct.
- bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 11:10 am | Reply
  
  Good developer does not automaticaly equal good entrepreneur. Most developers I know don’t have the necessary people skills or marketing skills. There are tons of wannabe IT entrepreneurs in Vancouver and 95% never take off.
  Then there is the high cost of living and low availability of capital deterring many from risk taking.
  This is NOT Silicon Valley, not even Toronto…
  - matt | 13 October 2011 at 4:27 pm |
    
    obviously. that’s why people leave. don’t you get it yet?
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 5:04 pm |
    
    The only thing I don’t get are your comments. I know that people are leaving. The examples I wrote about specificaly mentioned real estate as one of their reasons for leaving.
    Perhaps you could start your own company, hire some juniors and pay them Silicon Valley level salaries. Then please report back.
    🙄
  - matt | 13 October 2011 at 11:22 pm |
    
    Has it occured to you that your startup may be shit?
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 11:33 pm |
    
    matt, you are a fucking idiot and this is the last time I ever respond to your stupid coments.
    1) I have been in the industry for many years and dealt with many startups. What I am writing in the comments is general stuff about the IT industry (mostly in Vancouver)
    2) My startup is successful enough. Only a naive and ignorant idiot like you would think that successful entrepreneurs do not consider risks.
    3) You have obviously no idea about the industry and I think you also have a reading comprehension problem so my last sentence for you will be short and clear:
    Fuck off!
    
    [In view of Vancouver Magazine yesterday actually calling the cohort of young folks hobbled by Vancouver RE “Vancouver’s Generation Fucked”, we are no longer editing the ‘F-word’ out of posts (within reason). Reader discretion advised.
    We’d still prefer for commenters to play nice. -ed.]
- blammo | 13 October 2011 at 1:56 pm | Reply
  
  Three local start-ups acquired in the last few months:
  
  http://mashable.com/2011/10/12/hootsuite-geotoko/
  
  http://blogs.nitobi.com/andre/index.php/2011/10/03/nitobi-enters-into-acquisition-agreement-with-adobe/
  
  http://www.techvibes.com/blog/cnn-officially-acquires-vancouver-startup-zite-2011-08-30
- blammo | 13 October 2011 at 1:59 pm | Reply
  
  Three local start-ups acquired in the last few months:
  
  http://mashable.com/2011/10/12/hootsuite-geotoko/
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 2:06 pm |
    
    Hootsuite is also a local startup and trust me, they need to manage their money very carefuly. When they spend money on acquisitions, they know very well why they are doing it.
  - blammo | 13 October 2011 at 8:47 pm |
    
    There was another link that got filtered for a local iPhone dev co that was acquired. Just pointing out that local coder/entrepreneurs are taking risks, hiring, and being rewarded for it.
    
    Vancouver is not the ghetto it is being painted as here.
  - bubbly | 13 October 2011 at 9:06 pm |
    
    blammo, you are reading a bit too much into what is written here. I will summarize the facts for you:
    1) There is a talent shortage at the high end
    2) IT Salaries in Vancouver are lower than in Toronto, Ottawa or Bay Area (obviously)
    3) At the same time, real estate is so expensive that together with 2, it leads to skilled people leaving Vancouver
    4) There are many small/startup IT businesses here but the vast majority fails. That is a fact everywhere. However, the cost is lower in Ontario or BA while VC is more available in Ontario and BA (fact!)
  - blammo | 14 October 2011 at 12:58 am |
    
    bubbly,
    
    I just referenced three (four actually) successful start-ups in Vancouver whom have succeeded very recently. You countered with four of your perceived negatives.
    
    1. If you are a high-end talent, you are in demand in Vancouver. Positive.
    2. If you are an entrepreneur, salaries are lower. Positive.
    3. Vancouver is not BA or Toronto or Ottawa. It is different (and RE is expensive). Agree.
    4. Costs are lower for talent but higher for entrepreneurs. Neutral.
    5. VC money is definitely more available in BA.
    
    So, go to BA. Or don’t. But focus on the strengths of Vancouver not the weakness. Local real estate prices are not holding you back.
  - bubbly | 14 October 2011 at 9:35 am |
    
    blammo, where did I say that those things are all negatives? That is your own bias. As I said before, you are reading a bit too much into what is written here. I actually agree with your 4 point assessment.
- blammo | 13 October 2011 at 2:00 pm | Reply
  
  http://blogs.nitobi.com/andre/index.php/2011/10/03/nitobi-enters-into-acquisition-agreement-with-adobe/
- blammo | 13 October 2011 at 2:00 pm | Reply
  
  http://www.techvibes.com/blog/cnn-officially-acquires-vancouver-startup-zite-2011-08-30
- evilfred | 13 October 2011 at 6:48 pm | Reply
  
  bullshit. I’m not old and I work for a big corp because it’s stable, they pay well, and I get to make connections with smart technical people.
ams | 13 October 2011 at 2:57 pm | Reply

This does not suprize me at all I am on the other side of this. If I am to take a full time position rather than doing consulting I would have to take a such a huge pay cut that I won’t do it. With the IT salaries offered in Vancouver you will not make ends meet if you have a family.
- evilfred | 13 October 2011 at 6:49 pm | Reply
  
  hear hear. Salaries in this town are abysmally low, which is why all the good devs are leaving.
- CHG | 14 October 2011 at 7:51 am | Reply
  
  i heard the consulting side is really busy right now.
  Ill try applying for consulting jobs before i leave but Im also applying in calgary and seattle so van will probably come up short…
4SlicesofCheese | 13 October 2011 at 5:07 pm | Reply

Mark Zuckerberg and Vancouver housing.

“Others speculated he is here to talk to a local video game company about perhaps creating an online video game store on Facebook similar to the recently launched EA Online Store.

Or, could he be buying a reclusive property in Vancouver’s west side?”

I thought he was a renter.
- Hazu chan | 13 October 2011 at 6:35 pm | Reply
  
  Best place on earth.
- 4SlicesofCheese | 13 October 2011 at 11:22 pm | Reply
  
  Forgot the link
  
  http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/steve-jobs/Facebook+Mark+Zuckerberg+takes+bite+Vancouver+speculation+swirls/5546891/story.html
calguy | 13 October 2011 at 6:51 pm | Reply

Only the Sun would publish that story on Zuckerberg and claim he could be buying property here. He rented for years and only recently bought a house in Palo Alto (probably for a lot cheaper than the dumps you get in Vancouver)
big talk | 20 October 2011 at 12:07 pm | Reply

We are simply seeing the pendulum swing back in favor of local independent production.

The global outsourcing movement of the past couple of decades has simply depleted (consumed) its supply of willing (and now unwilling) slaves.

Serves them right for trying to live in the distant and ugly past. The glory days of slave owners were centuries ago. Even its roots are finally dying.

The new kids are not dummies. They are the future. Follow them.
- keeperofthederp | 20 October 2011 at 1:20 pm | Reply
  
  lol yes they are, don’t follow anybody