Tag Archives: US

Unashamed House Porn: Seattle Vs Vancouver

3018 W Lake Sammamish Pkwy, Redmond, WA
5,040 sqft SFH; 17,859 sqft lot (0.41 acres)
Built 1991
“110′ of preeminent, level waterfront”, “Terrific privacy, with front row expansive lake, mountain and coastline views from nearly every room.” Sammamish Lake. Pool and hot-tub.
Zillow estimate value $3.34M
Listed for sale Aug 2010 $3.925M
Price reduced May 2011
Current asking price $2.85M

[hat-tip to Jeff Murdock for this example. Jeff adds "Biking distance to Microsoft"(2.1 miles)]

Vancouver comparison:

4411 W 11th; 4,696 sqft SFH; 63×121 lot (7,623 sqft; 0.175 acres)
(Backs onto alleyway behind 10th Avenue stores.)
Listed 9 Oct 2010 $2,980,000;
Price change 6 Dec 2010 $2,890,000
Sold 15 Feb 2011 $2,830,000

“My American relatives would never even consider living here. My cousin sold an inherited Vancouver property for millions, and now lives a happy, carefree life travelling the world.”

pricedoutfornow at VREAA 23 July 2011 9:36am -
“My American relatives would never even consider living in Vancouver after having lived in New York City, Washington, DC and Southern California. It’s just a podunk little town to them, with the obligatory visit to family once in awhile. My cousin spotted this housing bubble a mile away, after having been through all the hype down there. She took this opportunity to sell an inherited property for millions (literally!) and now lives a happy, carefree life travelling the world, seeing all sorts of neat places (note: no city in Canada was on her list of “places to visit”). Ahh..what a life! I’m happy for her, glad at least someone’s profited from this bloody bubble.”

“I’ve got friends in Vancouver, and I’m sort of horrified and entranced by the situation. Half a million is a lot of money. This bubble just baffles me. Canada has land. Canada has trees. WTF?”

Yank at VREAA 4 July 2011 6:39pm -
“I’m a US ex-pat living in Canada, enjoying the country and the people very much. For bubblelicious reasons, I’m concerned about buying — especially as I might not be in town for more then 5 years. I’m not in Vancouver — prices are just mildly insane in the prairie city where I live. I’ve got friends in Vancouver, and I’m sort of horrified, entranced, and baffled by the situation.
Until recently I was living in the medical and university center in a rural midwestern state. My small city had the most expensive housing in the state: 5000 square foot mansions were going for 400 – 500K. A large 2 story was going for 200-300K. Townhouses with 2story attached garages, 1400 square feet, not including the finished basements, new construction were selling for 150K.
About a year ago friends bought a detached house in a nice area near Greenlake (Seattle) for 350K. You can get a good house in the nicest suburbs of Chicago, with the best public schools in the nation for half a mil. (Northbrook, Glenview, Willmette, Evanston). I’ve also seen nice two stories in those suburbs for as low at 350K.
Half a mil is a lot of money. This bubble just baffles me. Canada has land. Canada has trees. WTF?”

We also experience the bafflement, the horror, the entrancement.
And the fascination appears to have gone up a notch this last 6 months.
It’s like we’re watching a freak show and the rubber man is pushing limits we hadn’t anticipated.
Even his handlers are aghast; surely he can’t do that without hurting himself? – vreaa

The US Dollar – Who You Gonna Listen To? ‘Some Anonymous Blogger’, Or Lindsay Lohan?

“Have you guys seen food and gas prices lately? U.S. $ will soon be worthless if the Fed keeps printing money!”
- Lindsay Lohan tweet 27 Jun 2011

Need any more evidence that the USD will rally? -ed.

WSJ – ‘Chinese Fuel Vancouver Home Boom’

Excerpts from the ‘Chinese Fuel Vancouver Home Boom’, by Monica Gutschi, WSJ 1 June 2011 -
“A fresh wave of Chinese buyers, coupled with Canada’s already frothy home prices, has vaulted Vancouver into the ranks of the world’s most unaffordable real-estate markets.
Bungalows—small, detached, single-story homes, some in need of significant repair—can command prices well above a million Canadian dollars (US$1.02 million.) One local website, crackhouseormansion.com, invites visitors to guess whether homes pictured on the site are property sold for more than C$1 million or are alleged crack houses.” …
“Sales of homes worth more than C$2 million soared by 118% in Vancouver in the first four months of this year, real-estate brokerage RE/MAX reported in May. The average price in the high-end segment now tops C$3 million.” …
“Vancouver real-estate agents say Chinese buyers dominate the high end of the market, fanning demand and prices across the city. The strong demand for high-end homes has helped drive up prices for more modest houses. Some Vancouverites are selling their now richly valued homes and buying more-expensive ones, while new buyers are scrambling to buy before prices rise further, agents say. “It creates this positive vibe, this dynamic to the market that is upbeat,” says Elton Ash, vice president for western Canada at RE/MAX. …
The city always has been more expensive than most in Canada. Its location, sandwiched between the sea and the mountains, constrains the supply of available land. Vancouver also has long been near the top of global surveys in terms of quality of life. The 2010 Winter Olympics helped showcase the city to the world.” …
Some economists are starting to wave warning flags. Royal Bank of Canada says monthly carrying costs—mortgage payments, property taxes and utilities—for a detached bungalow represent 72% of the average Vancouver household income. That is more than double the 32% threshold that Canadian banks use to gauge whether a borrower can handle a loan.
“The prices appear disconnected to the level of activity and the balance of demand and supply,” RBC economist Robert Hogue says.”


For the record, the author of this WSJ article had a conversation with vreaa during it’s writing. Obviously the article is of interest, and is important to students of our RE market, because it gives prominence to the ‘Chinese Fuel Vancouver Home Boom’ meme in a respected international publication with wide readership. As a story about the Vancouver RE market, it is, however, lacking. Mention is made of low interest rates, easy borrowing, and “new buyers scrambling”, but, in our opinion, it should have put all the facts together and explicitly concluded that local buyers are responsible for this speculative mania. China is a subplot. It is remarkable that a US based publication, circa 2011, can’t see a housing bubble for what it is. – vreaa

Bubble Bear Bloggers Buy… in Seattle and New Jersey


“Tim, the seattlebubble.com blogger, bought this house [3601 Wetmore Ave, Everett, WA; 1,620sqft SFH on 6,098sqft lot] for $225K. [Seattle Bubble blog, 27 May 2011]. He expressed concern that the act of buying would be seen as “moral weakness” and “picked to pieces” by readers. He summed up rationale as “buy vs. rent was in favor of buying for the location & type of homes we wanted to live in”.
At less than $150/sqft, it seems fine to us. -ed.

HOMEOWNERS James A. Bednar and his wife, Jayne, are in the throes of renovating their first home, in Wayne. Mr. Bednar, a blogger, has been a longtime public skeptic of the real estate market.

BIG news in the virtual neighborhood: “Grim” bought a house. [from nytimes.com 12 May 2011]
For the last six years, James A. Bednar — or “Grim,” as he is known in the blogosphere — has served as a passionate advocate of cool wariness about New Jersey real estate. Through his posts on njrereport.com, Mr. Bednar convened a community of skeptics, scoffers and scavengers for “true value” during times of spiraling prices — first up, then down.
Most regulars on the blog appear to have remained renters through at least one full housing market cycle, depending on how one measures the cycling. As did Mr. Bednar.
But on the morning of April 29, as Grim, he abruptly posted the announcement that he and his wife, Jayne, were closing on a three-bedroom ranch in Wayne. “Has J. B. lost his mind?” asked Grim about himself.
There were 217 quick responses. “Now I’ve heard everything,” read one. Others asked whether Mr. Bednar would disband the blog, for which he is unpaid (definitely not, he said), and whether prices had now hit bottom (he did not answer that). But most expressed warm, if teasing, congratulations.
“I’m sure with your knowledge of the market you are getting a real good deal,” read a post from “Mikeinwaiting.” “As far as bottoms go, well, you take your chances.”
Mr. Bednar, who says he usually blogs in the wee hours, has had a full-time job as a software technician since graduating from college during the dot-com boom of the early 2000s. He withheld the gritty details of his purchase from the blog. But in an interview, he readily gave them up, saying that since he was in the habit of exposing price information about other peoples’ houses, it would be hypocritical to do otherwise: purchase price $435,000, list price $479,000 — meaning that the Bednars negotiated a 9 percent discount.

—-
As we’ve said before, US RE is a fair buy at present. There is likely still more downside, but, looking at these purchases prices, even another fairly big leg down wouldn’t completely destroy these folks.
Vancouver, snap-shot from the future, sometime later this decade? -ed.

Future BC Anecdote? – “I bought my first house 15 years ago, a four-bedroom for $124K. I could probably buy that same house now for $124K. All the appreciation we’ve gained in the last 15 years, it’s gone.

“In the last 20 years, I’ve never seen anything like it. I bought my first house in 1996, a four-bedroom for $124,000, and I could probably buy that same house for $124,000. All the appreciation we’ve gained in the last 15 years, it’s gone.” -
Chuck Whitehead, general manager for Coldwell Banker’s Southwest Riverside operations [San Diego] Eric Wolff at the NC Times, 16 Apr 2011.

[When speculative manias end. - ed.]

“I was born in Victoria BC. I bought a condo in False Creek in 2001 for $275K, sold it for $735K in 2010 and moved to Orlando Fl.”

Z at VREAA 28 May 2011 at 5:55 pm - “I was born in Victoria BC I bought a condo in false creek in 2001 for 275, I sold it for 735 in 2010, with mortgage as a dual citizen I moved to Orlando Fl. The cost of living is way, way, way less. You can get a palace for 300k with a pool. we have better weather more entertainment and cool cities to visit like Miami beach and Tampa, Daytona beach etc.The only thing vancouver has over us is, less driving, a better view, and less crime. Sometimes I miss the rain at night and how easy it was to get around van. but I would never go back. Vancouver is bland, boring and the people were rude, unfriendly and dull.And Plus the people here look cleaner and less wore out for some reason( I cant put my finger on why). I notice here in Florida, they also have more manners. Vancouver is a weird place”.

Seattle RE Price Growth A Tad Above Headline Inflation Since 1990

Chart from seattlebubble.com 28 April 2011.

Now at 4% p.a. since 1990.
CPI 3% over same period.
Will likely ‘undershoot’ inflation before this is all over.

[Hat-tip to 'commenter-with-many-names' for shouting this chart out.]

“The idea of a highly paid surgeon leaving because he can’t afford to live in Vancouver is absurd.” ["No, it isn't."]

Pat at VREAA, 17 May 2011 8:11am, writes in response to the anecdote: Doctors Leaving Vancouver – “My friend, a surgeon at Children’s Hospital, said he couldn’t have the life he wanted in Vancouver because of the insane real estate prices here”, 16 Feb 2011 -
“Even though prices are obviously too high in Vancouver, the idea of a highly paid surgeon leaving because he can’t afford to live in Vancouver is absurd.
It says more about that person’s idea of ‘lifestyle’ than anything else. How is it that I can live here very comfortably on a self-employed salary ranging from $35,000/year to $50,000/year with my mature student spouse who earns maybe $15,000 part-time?
It’s ridiculous that someone says they can’t afford Vancouver on, what, $200,000/year. Utter nonsense.”

Pat -
Many thanks for your comment. Arguments similar to the one you make are made regularly and in various forms, so we’ll headline a discussion here.
We don’t find this surgeon’s decision absurd at all.
It is important to realize that, when “prices are obviously too high” in a RE market, they seem so to people at all levels of wealth and income. The surgeon takes a look at Vancouver RE, and realizes that he cannot afford the type of property that he’d expect to be able to live in, given his training and income. In actual fact he likely earns substantially more than you suggest, perhaps over $300K, or $400K, or even more. He could prudently afford a property selling for, say, $1.6M-$1.8M. But, take a look at what he gets for that on the westside at present. Then compare those properties with the houses that surgeons earning similar incomes, living in Washington State, or California, or Hawaii, or New York, or even Ottawa, get to call ‘home’. That’s the point. The surgeon in Vancouver cannot afford to live a lifestyle commensurate with his training and income. So he moves. This is a completely sane decision.
It is inevitable that a speculative mania in real estate should causes such forces to take effect; the misallocation of resources is characteristic of a bubble. In this case, valuable human capital is squandered and lost to our community. Many skilled professionals have made similar decisions, by either leaving or not migrating here to Vancouver in the first place. There have been anecdotes on these pages of business executives and university professors, amongst others, avoiding Vancouver for these reasons. [See the 'Avoiding Vancouver' post category for some examples.]
So, yes, it may seem that it is unfair for the surgeon to say that they “can’t afford” Vancouver; but their conclusion and their move is also perfectly sensible. It would be more accurate for him to state: “I can’t afford the kind of home in Vancouver that I can afford in every other North American city.”
This line of thinking is relevant to all Vancouverites. You may think you can ‘afford’ Vancouver, but have you considered what a similar income (or your home’s current market value) would get you elsewhere?
We’re not concerned that this specific force will leave our city deserted. Everybody can’t leave at once. It’ll only take a small percentage trying to cash out for the market to crash.
While the bubble remains in existence, however, it is sorely damaging our community by the many perverse pressures that it applies; having professionals leave town is one of them.
- vreaa

Arbutus vs Maui – Momentum Players Choose Half The Property At Twice The Price

Another Vancouver-vs-US comparison, this one from ‘vancouverites should consider opening their eyes’ over at vancouvercondo.info 14 May 2011 11:00pm -

“You can buy one of these:

2216 W 21st, Vancouver (Arbutus area, Vancouver westside)
3100sqft SFH; 50x122ft lot (6,100 sqft)
Asking price: $2,498,000

Or move to Maui and buy *two* of these:

40 Hale Alii Place, Kihei
5071sqft SFH; 14,422 sqft lot (0.33acres)
Asking price: $1,249,999

The former is a 3100 square foot house on a 6000 square foot lot in the world class neighborhood of Asthma Flats, err, Arbutus. It’s only an hour’s walk from the beach.
The latter is a 5000 square foot house on a 14000 square foot lot in Wailea, and 500 meters from the beach.
I’m sure these Vancouver prices are *perfectly* sustainable. Arbutus is the new Wailea, right?”

—–

Our Comment: The attraction of the Arbutus property, to some buyers [and all it takes is 'some buyers'], would simply be that prices on the westside of Vancouver have been consistently rising, whereas the same buyers are likely deterred from purchasing the Maui property on the basis of the fact that prices there have been dropping.
Yes, we know this makes no sense, the buyers are being attracted to buying high, rather than looking for good value.
That is precisely what momentum investors do, they like prices that are going up, and they dislike prices that are going down… they pay no attention to the concept of value as determined by fundamental measures. By all such measures (price:rent, price:income) the Arbutus property is greatly overvalued when compared with the Maui property.
This is what happens in speculative manias, prices run away with themselves because of momentum players. Once prices turn, the momentum can be just as ferocious on the way down.
We suspect that prices on Vancouver’s westside are still going up solely because of the false belief held by some that this is one of the only RE pockets on earth where prices are immune to a serious pullback. The belief is fallacious, and we foresee price drops of about 66% for some of the properties now exchanging hands. Homes like the headlined property, for instance, will very likely change hands for $1M or less by the time we hit a trough. And, by global standards, and fundamental value, they will still be richly priced at those levels. Vancouver buyers are currently overpaying by ludicrous amounts. – vreaa

“I sold a Vancouver residence and have invested the money. I’m in the process of trying to get “permanent residency” in the U.S. I want to live somewhere cheaper and warmer.”

From ‘Vancouver’ at greaterfool.ca 11 May 2011 10:03pm“I sold a Vancouver residence and have invested the money in the market, the investments (mostly Canadian dividend stocks) are yielding me enough money to live off. I’m also in the process of trying to get “permanent residency” in the U.S., ultimately I want to live somewhere cheaper and warmer than Vancouver. I won’t work in the states, I’ll just be living off my dividend income and probably just renting.”

The ability to sell a property in Vancouver and as a consequence retire comfortably elsewhere is a bizarre phenomenon in its own right. This is likely already tempting some to sell, and thus putting some downward pressure on Vancouver prices. So far, that pressure continues to be overwhelmed by the upward pressure of ongoing speculative buying. When prices turn and start dropping, many owners who feel they are then watching their comfortable retirements evaporate before their eyes, will rush to market. They will add to supply in a falling market.  – vreaa


On The Other Hand – After The Plunge, Nobody Wants To Buy

From ‘Americans Shun Cheapest Homes in 40 Years as Ownership Fades’, bloomberg.com, 19 Apr 2011 -
“Victoria Pauli signed a one-year lease last week to stay in her rental home in Fair Oaks, California. She had considered buying in the area, where property prices have slumped 57 percent since a 2005 peak.
In the end, she decided it wasn’t worth it.
“I know people who have watched their home values get cut in half, and I know people who are losing their homes,” said Pauli, 31, who works as a property manager for a real estate company. “It’s part of the American dream to want to own your own home, and I used to feel that way, but now I tell myself: Be careful what you wish for.”
The most affordable real estate in a generation is failing to lure buyers as Americans like Pauli sour on the idea of home ownership. At the end of 2010, the fourth year of the housing collapse, the share of people who said a home was a safe investment dropped to 64 percent from 70 percent in the first quarter. The December figure was the lowest in a survey that goes back to 2003, when it was 83 percent.
“The magnitude of the housing crash caused permanent changes in the way some people view home ownership,” said Michael Lea, a finance professor at San Diego State University. “Even as the economy improves, there are some who will never buy a home because their confidence in real estate is gone.”

So:
Sky-rocketing prices -> “Where do I line-up to sign?”
After the plunge -> “Sorry, not worth it..”
Amazing, eh? Aren’t we humans fascinating?
Not only because this happens once (which would be fascinating enough), but because this happens time and again, in all markets, during and after all speculative manias. Groups have no memory.
- vreaa

More International Coverage Of Our Bubble – US National Public Radio – ‘Where The Housing Bubble Lives On’

More international coverage for our bubble: ‘Where The Housing Bubble Lives On’, National Public Radio blog, at npr.org 22 Apr 2011, featuring this recent Vancouver westside sale from the G&M -

2466 WEST 14TH AVE., VANCOUVER
ASKING PRICE $1,895,000
SELLING PRICE $2.55-million
PREVIOUS SELLING PRICE $531,000 (1996)
DAYS ON THE MARKET eleven
[npr's comment]: “Sure, the pool slide is awesome. But would you pay $2.55 million to live here?”

From the reader/listener comments that followed:

“I’m Canadian, and I have lived in several parts of Canada. I currently reside in Burnaby, a suburb of Vancouver. To characterize the Canadian housing market by the prices in West Vancouver is like estimating national home fire rates based on Malibu. You can get a really nice townhouse in Toronto for money that wouldn’t buy you a vacant lot in Van., so yes, the prices on W. coast are ridiculous. Since the housing market in the USA still is toxic, if you are in Asia and have money to invest in N. America real estate, Canada is the only choice. The Vancouver area is attractive due to publicity from Olympics, a large asian pop’n, mild climate, min. from USA/Canada border, easy to get back to Asia.” – Chris Parker

“I live in New Westminster, a suburb of Vancouver. Vancouver has the most expensive (read: insane) housing prices in Canada; my wife and I bought a house here in 2006 because it was relatively affordable. My guess was that the bubble would burst after the Olympics were over in 2010…I was wrong.
The case of the house flipping in 11 days is an extreme one, but the rise in prices overall has been pretty steady. We’ve watched prices rise in our neighbourhood, and I don’t think we could afford to buy a house now…we did well to buy when we did.
I do worry about the bubble bursting. As you say, there is always an explanation of why this time is different, and I don’t find those stories convincing. I hope we’ll come out of it okay: our plans are to be here for a long time, and we’re in a nice neighbourhood close to schools and other amenities. I hope that will cushion the blow for us.”
– Hugh Brown

Median US Real SFH Prices Retreat To 1970′s Levels

[from chartoftheday.com]

“In Vancouver, I can’t afford to buy in an area where I would actually WANT to live. Guess what? There are lots of other highly desirable places to live, especially on the west coast of North America.”

HomelessinSD at REtalks 14 Apr 2011 1:02pm“I couldn’t afford the Dunbar home 7 years ago and I can’t afford the Dunbar home now. You can’t buy what you don’t have money for… [In 2004], I was a few months away from getting married and my future wife was homesick.
At the time, I was working in southern California and would only consider moving back to Vancouver if the situation was right (like having a chance to own a home in a good neighborhood). I saved lots of money from 2004 and I bought in San Francisco in 2007 and we are quite happy here. I’m not bitter about not owning in Vancouver and I have absolutely no desire to live anywhere east of Main – there are better options elsewhere in the lower mainland.
So, it’s 7 years later and I like Vancouver considerably less than I did in 2004 – to the point where it’s likely I’ll never move back. You might argue that I won’t move back because I can’t afford to. That’s partially true: While I could purchase a shit-shack on the east side, I can’t afford to buy in an area where I would actually WANT to live in Vancouver. Guess what? There are lots of other places to live, especially on the west coast of North America that are highly desirable.
Homes tripling in value in 7 years is not healthy or sustainable.”

“My buddy in Florida had high hopes that his home was his retirement cash cow, that he was going to sell it in a few years, and buy a mansion on a 100 acre ranch.”

Jsan at greaterfool.ca 15 Apr 2011 9:04pm“My buddy in Florida had high hopes 5 years ago that his home was his retirement cash cow, or at least he was going to sell it in a few years, move his family to a cheaper state and buy a mansion on a 100 acre ranch. His house had skyrocketed in price and there was nothing I could say that would convince him that the price would not last. After all, “It was different in Florida”. Fast forward 5 years and his house price has plummeted back to the point of what he paid for it in the late 90′s. Just another person who foolishly bought the idea that house prices doubling, tripling or more in only a few years was somehow a normal occurrence that would last. Sort of like 90% of all homeowners in Canada……for now! My guess is there will be a lot of people in certain overpriced neighborhoods in Vancouver (Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, etc. to a lesser extent) that will be absolutely kicking themselves in a few years time for not cashing out while they could.”
Exactly. -ed.

“I know a couple waiting for 5 years for prices to come down so they can afford a house with a garden and have a baby. Finally they gave up on Vancouver and moved to Seattle.”

paradox April 11th, 2011 at 2:14 pm“I know a couple who has been waiting for 5 years for prices to come down so they can afford a house with a garden and have a baby. They both work in manufacturing industry and have decent jobs. Finally they gave up on Vancouver and moved to Seattle. They are expecting a baby now. We don’t need more immigrants. Make life affordable for people already here and they will certainly have more kids. We will pay a dear price in the future.”

That’s another three people lost to Vancouver directly because of the RE bubble. -vreaa

Seattle RE – Down 30% From 2007 Peak; Back To Sept 2004 Prices; Still Dropping

Down 29.6% since 2007 peak; prices back to Sept 2004 levels.
[from seattlebubble.com, hat-tip Don]

Our run up has been greater and our fall will be greater. – vreaa

US Housing Prices 1890-2010: Tracking CPI And Nothing More

from The Atlantic, 24 Mar 2011

Avoiding Vancouver, Ongoing – “Businesses are starting to move out of Vancouver. The cost of living is too high to justify the salaries for employees.”

From the comment section of the G&M 17 Mar 2011 article ‘Vancouver’s new fleet of cargo tricycles’: ‘General Ham’ 18 Mar 2011, 4:15pm“Businesses are starting to move out of Vancouver. The cost of living is too high to justify the salaries for employees. We have already moved some of our operations to Vaughn and the remaining jobs will be moved to Texas this fall. Total loss will be 20 professional jobs.”

G&M readers were voting that comment down. Hard to imagine exactly why.  – vreaa

Fundamentals – “When would you buy?”

We haven’t mentioned the actual word  ‘fundamentals’ here for a while, probably because they seem so, well, passé for Vancouver. But the concept remains alive and well, if a little dormant, in the minds of the few remaining prospective buyers who see the market as bizarrely overvalued. Sometimes such folks are asked: “When would you buy?”
On a recent thread, ‘matt’ pointed us all to a 2008 NYTimes article on this very subject, a useful reminder in these frothy times. It’s worth the re-read, if just to keep oneself in touch with the reality of the extra-Vancouver universe:
‘As Home Prices Drop Low Enough, a Committed Renter Decides to Buy’, by David Leonhardt, NYTimes, 28 May 2008. A few excerpts: -

“One of the big lies of the real estate business is the idea that renting a home is tantamount to throwing money away. It’s a useful fiction for real estate agents, because they make vastly bigger commissions on house sales than rentals. But the comparison isn’t nearly so straightforward for the rest of us. Renting involves one obvious, recurring cost that can never be recouped: the monthly rent check. Buying, on the other hand, involves multiple expenses, some of which aren’t so obvious. On top of closing costs, there are repairs, property taxes, mortgage principal and mortgage interest. When you own, you also lose the ability to invest your down payment elsewhere, like the stock market.”

“Over the last several years, I’ve come to like a simple, back-of-the-envelope way to compare the costs of renting and owning. You find two similar houses, one for sale and the other for rent, and divide the sale price by the annual rent. You can call the result the rent ratio.
It’s the real estate market’s version of a price-earnings ratio — a measure of how expensive an asset is, relative to the underlying economic fundamentals. Like a P/E ratio, the rent ratio provides something of a reality check.
Throughout the 1970s, ’80s and ’90s, the average rent ratio in the US hovered between 10 and 14. [In the mid 2000's] it broke through that historical range and hit almost 19 by the time the housing market peaked [in the US], in 2006.
And while home prices — and rent ratios — have always been higher on the coasts, they reached whole new levels recently. In the Washington area, the ratio went above 20. In Boston, New York, Los Angeles and south Florida, it topped 25. In Northern California, it approached 35, higher than it had been in any city, at any point on record.
In concrete terms, a rent ratio above 20 means that the monthly costs of ownership well exceed the cost of renting.”

“The question facing my wife and me was whether we were entering the market before the correction had gone far enough. I really didn’t know what the answer would be. So as we looked at houses, I started calculating rent ratios. In the neighbourhoods where we were looking, two-bedroom condominiums were selling for $400,000 and being rented for about $2,100 a month, which makes for a rent ratio of 16. Four-bedroom houses were selling for $700,000 and being rented for almost $4,000, which makes for a rent ratio of 15. No matter the price range, pretty much every apples-to-apples comparison produced a similar ratio. Historically, this is still a bit high.”

Using similar calculations, ‘rent ratios’ [sales_price/annual_rent] for SFHs in Vancouver are currently commonly in the 40-42 range. -vreaa

Kitsilano Versus Hollywood Hills

This comparison discussed at other sites, reproduced here thanks to Nick:

2165 W 8th Ave, Kitsilano. MLS V868142.
3962 sqft house, 50x120ft lot [6,000sqft], multifamily zoned.
4 suites, gross revenue $70Kpa, ‘Oldtimer’
$2,250,000. Cap rate less than 3%

———–
Not apples to apples, we know, but, regardless, compare with:

Ashton Kutcher’s 3235sqft house on 0.9 acre lot [39,204 sqft] in Hollywood Hills, L.A.
$2,600,000. [That's $2,524,271 Canadian. -ed. ;) ]

“I lived in Houston for 5 years, and it is indeed amazing what you can buy there compared to pretty much anywhere in Canada.”

Krazy Kanuk at vancouvercondo.info March 8th, 2011 at 12:28 pm-
“Texas is a subject near and dear to my heart. I lived in Houston for 5 years (left about 6 years ago), and it is indeed amazing what you can buy there compared to pretty much anywhere in Canada.
I agree with
[previous VCI poster] patriotz regarding property tax keeping a lid on prices. It’s roughly 3.25% a year in Texas. There do exist million dollar houses there, but it’s rare. You would pay almost $3K a month in taxes on it. I think it’s a better system. The high (percentage wise) property tax rates help keep prices stable. You can get a nice house there for $150K, and pay about the same taxes (in dollar amounts) as here in Vancouver. You can get a very liveable small older house for $70 to $80K. Oh, and you could rent out that house for $1200 to $1500 a month.
Having said this, I guess nothing can completely fix stupid. During the early 80′s, even Texas had a property bubble because “we have oil” (sound familiar??). If I remember correct, real prices still haven’t recovered.”

Vegas Versus Vancouver, 1987-Present

Following up on the last post, and as a weekend diversion, here’s the REBGV average nominal price chart 1977-2011, for detached, attached and apartments, overlaid with a semi-opaque insert of this Las Vegas house price chart, for the purpose of absolute price comparisons 1987-2009 (scales are the same; but there is no correction for currency exchange fluctuation):

One interesting aspect of this comparison is that, in 1987, when a loonie was worth about 70c US, the average detached home in Vancouver cost roughly the same as the average house in Las Vegas. Now, in 2011, the house in Vancouver costs more than 6 times the house in Vegas.

Speculation Drives The Bubble – “This boom was driven not by a sense that it was temporary, it was driven by a sense of a new reality, that home prices would just always go up at 10% a year.”

From video excerpt of a talk by Robert Shiller on the US housing market, at the Schwartz Center For Economic Policy Analysis, 18 Feb 2009. [full talk here].

[at 3:41min] “All of a sudden, in the early 2000s there is this huge boom, and then sudden collapse. Now, it’s partly due to the sub-prime lending revolution, and that’s why the low tier homes went up the most. But I wouldn’t blame it on the sub-prime revolution, because sub-prime primarily effects low price homes, and you see the high priced homes in the same boom. Moreover, I think the sub-prime revolution is in some sense a consequence of the housing bubble… people got so excited about housing, the lenders believed it too.. thinking they were doing these low income borrowers a great favour by getting them into a mortgage. .. They all believed that home prices were going to just go up and up… I know they believed this because [we did questionnaires about expectations]. The mean [home buyer] expectation in LA at the peak of the market was 23% per year for the next ten years.. that’s what people told us… about a third of the people were just wacko about this.. you know it just can’t be right. [comment on compound interest].
This boom was driven not by a sense that we were in a temporary boom, that you want to get out of, it was driven by a sense of a new reality, that home prices would just always go up at 10% a year… it ain’t so, prices don’t do that… people got this crazy idea…”

“This is Las Vegas… isn’t that amazing?… Las Vegas, which is the gambling centre of the country… All of a sudden, wham… In a lot of the cities, the prices are back.. the bubble is over.. the concern now is whether we’ll overshoot.”

“I’ve directly witnessed the negative impact of real estate pricing on our capacity to recruit/retain clinical and research talent here.”

Royce McCutcheon at VREAA 16 February 2011 at 2:47 pm-
“I’ve directly witnessed the negative impact of real estate pricing on our capacity to recruit/retain clinical and research talent here. The reality is that the offers in Vancouver (vs. Toronto or USA) have typically been lower with respect to salary and support funding. From what I gather, it’s been this way for a long time. This was somewhat sustainable in the past because Vancouver held enough appeal that some folks were willing to take a hit. Of course, that hit was usually small-ish; by my estimation, we’re talking about ~15% lower salary at most. Lately, I’ve heard multiple stories about potential hires (MDs, researchers) expressing legitimate interest in these slightly lower Vancouver offers… but only until they started investigating our grossly inflated house prices. Once these people realized the true size of the hit they’d be taking after buying a place, they walked. One individual who was being recruited for a very senior position – who had local ties and wanted to come here – spelled out that he could make much more money in his current, more intellectually satisfying position while only working 9 months a year. He pointed out that this set-up left him ample time to pay for travel and rental accommodations at all kinds of fun spots in Vancouver and surrounding areas.
We are losing talent and we are having a tough time recruiting more. I fear this fact will stay masked until we see a real estate correction, so the sooner that happens, the better.”

Doctors Leaving Vancouver – “My friend, a surgeon at Children’s Hospital, said he couldn’t have the life he wanted in Vancouver because of the insane real estate prices here.”

WFT? at vancouvercondo.info February 15th, 2011 at 4:22 pm-
“Just got off the phone with a university friend of mine. He is a surgeon at Children’s Hospital. He took just took a job in Bellevue, Washington. Said he couldn’t have the life he wanted in Vancouver (private schools for kids, nice house with a yard in a good neighbourhood, vacations) because of the insane real estate prices here.
The pay is about the same as here but the real estate is way cheaper. He said that after all his hard work, he can “finally enjoy the good life”.
I asked him if he feels guilty about the government subsidizing his education only for him to leave the country. He said “a little but I’m not sacrificing my children’s future for it”.

pricedoutfornow at vancouvercondo.info February 15th, 2011 at 6:51 pm- “I’ve had two doctors move away on me in the last few years. And no wonder, how would you feel if you were a doctor, after years of studying, and all you can afford is some ugly 60 year old crack shack in East Van? YES!!! All those years of hard work REALLY paid off!”

Sure, we know that people come and go. We are, after all, nomads. But unnecessarily outrageous housing prices systematically disadvantage a city like ours. In addition to those who leave, there are those who don’t come here in the first place, because of the cost of housing. We personally know of such examples: people who travel here to interview for jobs, but then decline the offer after an incredulous drive-around with their spouse. Loss of human capital is initially relatively invisible, and its consequences easily hidden under the superficial and temporary apparent advantages of a housing boom. The RE market is sapping our communities, and interfering with almost all kinds of sustainable growth. Things will equilibrate eventually after the crash, but it will take time. – vreaa

“I put on my Vancouver real-estate price calculator and made a guess… I had guessed over 10 times too much.”

A great story regarding the slow and steady desensitization we in Vancouver have experienced, over 6-8 years, regarding price levels that, to almost any outside observer, make absolutely no sense. -vreaa

Billy Bob at greaterfool.ca 15 Feb 2011 4:46am -
“I had an ”oh-my-gosh” moment when I realized just how big and dangerous this real estate bubble is here in Vancouver. It happened last summer.
I was riding my bike in a beautiful suburb south of Seattle. I would have guessed that I was in West Vancouver, with sleepy windy streets hugging the sunny shoreline. The birds were singing in the mature trees. BMWs and Porsches populated the the driveways of classy houses.
I took note of two properties for sale. One was a small high-bank waterfront building lot while the other was a quaint well-maintained older home bordering a small nicely-landscaped ocean-front park with a lighthouse. Both properties enjoyed stunning views.
I thought to myself, ”Wow. I would love to live here. It’s just gorgeous. But I’d never be able to afford it.” I put on my Vancouver real-estate price calculator and made a guess… For the waterfront building lot in a West Van like location, say, $1M -$2M? Not sure. For the little house adjacent to a picture postcard lighthouse park and steps from a stunning pebble beach, say, $1M-$1.5M?
Later in the day, I looked them up on the Internet. The asking prices? $50K and $120K, respectively. I had guessed over 10 times too much. When I showed my wife her immediate response was, ”Oh, that can’t be right.” But it was right.
That’s what Vancouver real-estate insanity does to you over time. You start thinking that $750K is a pretty good deal for a tear down starter house in the suburbs. It takes a dose of reality to make you realize just how wrong Vancouver prices are and how far Vancouver has to fall. That applies to all of Canada, for that matter.”

Leaving – “We have decided to give up on Vancouver.”

SDBound at vancouvercondo.info February 9th, 2011 at 11:18 am- “After scrimping and saving for a downpayment for the past 5 years – we are of the traditional 20pct downpayment 25 year mortgage mentality – only to have house prices run up faster than we could save we have decided to give up on Vancouver. Don’t get me wrong the city is wonderful but the cost of living and opportunities are not here for the average or even above average blue/white/grey collar working class.
When we went look at houses every one has mortgage helpers and basement suites. To me that’s not right. Single family detached houses turning into tri-plexes and 4-plexes. That is what is driving up house prices. City council should approve more multifamily and higher density house all over the city.
For the past while I been working with a recruitment firm and last night I accepted a job in San Diego. The salary is about 10pct higher with health plan and 2 weeks of paid vacation. We will rent first and then later look to buy a house for around 320k. With the lower living costs, my wife can afford to stay home with the kids. My parents and inlaws will come visit us every few months and will probably stay a few weeks at a time especially in the winter.
Some pundits will say good riddance and maybe that we are complainers and so forth. This is not a pity attention getting post. I do this to say there are options out there. Why take the narrow view to say this is the only nice place to live – the world is a big place. If Vancouver wants to be a rich man playground so be it.”

Joshua at vancouvercondo.info February 9th, 2011 at 11:31 am- “Good for you! Its funny, my wife and I have been having this exact conversation. I was recently in San Diego for a conference – it was November, and I had some time to stroll around on the beaches in my short sleeves, gorgeous and sunny. When I got home, we pulled up some real estate pages and marveled at what we could buy for $400K. She is pregnant, and it sure would be nice if she could stay home with the kids, while I work, and still have more money every month…”

Patiently Waiting at vancouvercondo.info February 9th, 2011 at 11:47 am- “My wife and I are discussing Ontario. She has lots of family there, and I have many old friends from University who went to TO for their careers. If Ontario continues to grow while BC shrinks, we will go. Its more about our limited job market than housing prices, really.”

“There was obviously an insularity to the Irish mentality during their bubble. I feel something of that insularity here in Vancouver.”

Froogle Scott at VREAA 10 Feb 2011 1:44am“I’m halfway through the Vanity Fair article (“When Irish Eyes Are Crying,” by Michael Lewis [hat-tip to Nick for alerting us all to it -ed.]). Every couple of paragraphs I’ve been struck by the parallels to our situation here in Vancouver. Ireland is interesting, because in some respects it might be a better parallel for Vancouver than the United States. The US is such a vast economy, that even down on one knee, it’s still a heavyweight. Ireland is the provincial society that suddenly blew up grand — with a bad result. Something about that dynamic feels closer to home than what’s occurred across the entire US real estate market. Although BC is part of a much larger country, our geographic isolation, our relatively small population, our history of being outside the centers of power, does have an “Irish” aspect to it. And perhaps that isolation can lead to becoming ungrounded, or disconnected in certain ways. There was obviously an insularity to the Irish mentality during their bubble. I feel something of that insularity here in Vancouver.”

Thanks for the thoughts, Froogle, very interesting associations. We don’t have the overbuilding that the Irish had, but the fact that we are ‘insulated’, as you describe, may make us vulnerable to some of the same engines that popped their bubble. It is possible that, with a simple turn of sentiment & loss of imagination, we rapidly find ourselves less a cosmopolitan capital and more a medium sized provincial city with almost no discernible means of economic support. Another way in which we are ‘insulated’ is one which is, of course, common to all bubbles: statements like “All real estate is local” and “It’s different here” are used unconsciously by bubble-players to ‘insulate’ themselves from glaring external realities. When the history of our boom and bust is written (by you, perhaps?), we are sure that one of the most remarkable features will be how long prices chugged on up to more and more preposterous levels despite the glaring examples of bubble implosion all around. US, Spain, Ireland, etc, etc. All a testimony to the ability of the human mind, in particular the ‘group mind’, to ignore that which is inconvenient to face. -vreaa

While we’re partly on the subject of Ireland, ‘Charlie Mackay’ is a blogger who has archived quotes from their bubble. Take a look; Spot the similarities.
Here’s a nice one, from Sean Dunne, Property Developer, in 2006, just before their bubble imploded: “Every economist associated with every stockbroker in Ireland mistakenly forecast the end of the housing and property boom in Ireland”. They had been “vociferous and repetitive”, in the process encouraging outside commentators, including the Economist, the IMF and the OECD, to issue warnings about Irish house prices being overvalued. Well, “The hyenas have stopped laughing . . . each and every one of them was wrong. Instead, the price and supply of housing units has continued to break records.”
[For examples of quotes from Vancouver Sean-Dunne-equivalents (and a few 'hyena' naysayers), recorded here, in real time, while our bubble is actually still a bubble, see the 'What Bubble?' sidebar.]

“I sympathise completely with savers and those who behaved prudently who now find themselves among the biggest losers from this crisis.”

Mervyn King, Britain’s chief central banker, last week made some plain statements not yet heard from central bankers this side of the Atlantic [from sovereignman.com 1 Feb 2011] -
“In 2011, real wages are likely to be no higher than they were in 2005… One has to go back to the 1920s to find a time when real wages fell over a period of six years.”
“The squeeze on living standards is the inevitable price to pay for the financial crisis and subsequent rebalancing of the world and UK economies.”
“I sympathise completely with savers and those who behaved prudently now find themselves among the biggest losers from this crisis.”

“I lived in Portland for over 20 years until moving here 4 years ago.”

Simpatico at vancouvercondo.info January 26th, 2011 at 9:44 pm“I lived in Portland for over 20 years until moving here 4 years ago. After meeting lots of Vancouverites (the nature of my work), I can honestly say 1) too many are not critical thinkers nor well-read; 2) developers and real estate industry is much more powerful here (reminds me of Arizona in this respect, where I grew up); 3) Portlanders are also the most well-read bunch you can encounter…more books sold per capita in Portland than NYC, a stat that has held for several years. So, prices never got anywhere near the bubbly amount they’ve reached here, simply because less BS, and not as many bought the BS. With one important exception: The mainline banks and the many fly-by-night mortgage lenders launched a mighty predatory lending assault on the Hispanics, in particular, signing entire extended families on the dotted line, including illegals and people who were not literate in their first language, let alone English. It was these who lost their downpayments, paid outrageous fees at closings, were intimidated out of life savings, and lost their homes in droves. These pushed the price fall, especially in the extended metro area. I know because I built social housing for farmworkers, the poorest, and they were buying homes that were 3 and 4 times what they could afford. Nothing was really affordable to them and they would have continued to be good renters who could sleep at night until these sleazy lenders got hold of them…
And also consider that the average HH income in Portland was about $60K when I left, compared to just over $50K here, and you see how out of whack this market here really is.”

4SlicesofCheese at vancouvercondo.info January 26th, 2011 at 11:40 pm“My uncle is from Portland. At one point he had 3 houses. One primary, two rentals. Occupation – Mailman.
Prices were going up back then and I remember them bragging to my mom about how smart they were. One year I guess something happened. They were up in Vancouver for my cousins wedding and he was talking to my mom that they just got their property taxes worth 10k and they couldn’t pay it. Again house rich, money poor.
My mom offered to lend them the 10k. Thank god he refused to take it. He told my mom he was thinking of selling one of them as it had almost doubled in value, his wife was really against this as she thought prices would go up till infinity and wanted to keep the house for her son.
Thankfully he sold one off to a greater fool, made some good money and paid off the other house (even though its paid off its still worth less then what they paid for it years ago).
Three months later the market tanked.”

“My new path forward?? Here it is: Sell. Move back to the USA to the most expensive housing market in the country and still be able to buy a real house with actual quality and real architecture for 50% less than what sheet holes cost here.”

If this anecdote doesn’t make you sit up and think, nothing will. The Vancouver RE market is perversely distorted, and this is profoundly unhealthy for our society.  – vreaa

vanhattan at vancouvercondo.info December 28th, 2010 at 4:41 pm- “Here is my situation. I moved here in 2005. I could not find a ‘decent’ place to rent that would accept a very well behaved dog so we decided to buy a condo of a whopping 889 square feet. We hated the condo and paid more than 3x what our gorgeous home with 22 foot ceilings, 1/2 acre treed lot with more than 3x the square footage cost. (sold our 3,000 sf home for 330K, bought our 889 sf condo in Van for 377K). The purchase and shock of living in this shit hole almost cost me my marriage. F*ck, even the dog hated the place. So we sold 15 months later for 488K. Never saw an uneducated unemployed dog make a 100K+ in one year but that is what our dear Buster did as we would not have purchased except for him. Purchased another condo, this one a more reasonable 1050sf brand new condo with great views, great neighborhood. Still nowhere as nice as our old ‘home’ but at least manageable. Purchased for 700K. The latest comps put our place at 900K+.

Ok so here is our situation. Have a huge desire to get back into a real house again. Have been searching for over a year now. Have been looking at complete sheet boxes going for over 1.5 million that before I moved here I would NEVER have even considered even looking at much less buying and LIVING in. This is what we found one recent weekend: Falling down complete sheet boxes with more than 30+ people showing up in the first 10 minutes of an advertised open house. I am NOT racist in the least bit but have to say that 80% of the lookers were of Asian decent. Guess what???? The damn place sold for 100K over asking at 1.6M the very SAME day!!!!!!!!!

I got so depressed I went home almost in tears. My new path forward?? Here it is: Put the place on the market this spring for 200K under current valuations per a comparable sale one month ago. This is still 100K more than what we paid for it but being 200K below the most recent comp should sell in a weekend. Guess what. I am getting the F#%k out of here. We should be able to easily get out of here with 250K more in our pocket than when we arrived. I figured if we had rented the same places vs. buy we would have paid about $150K over the same period. So we will walk away from the best city on earth living essentially rent free with 100K to spare. What are we going to do next? Move back to the USA to the most expensive housing market in the country and still be able to buy a real house with actual quality and real architecture for 50% less than what sheet holes cost here. This metro area also actually has jobs that pay on average 3x what they pay here.

Bottom line: even though I have been very lucky with this real estate market in Vancouver, I can’t believe what places are still selling for. My opinion is that prices will continue to go up as long as the Asians keep moving here en mass buying any sheet hole for above asking price. My estimate is that China still has a couple of years left of their bubble before it bursts so Vancouver will probably still go up and up and up for another couple of years.

I am out of here. I want to stay, but simply cannot afford it. I am not bragging but I make 5x the average wage of the average resident and can’t for the life of me figure out how anyone makes it in this town.

So am I a bear? Am I a bull? Neither. Just a very discouraged Vancouver resident who simply cannot believe the prices of the crappy 2nd world real estate here. I simply cannot afford to live here and I make more than 200K/year!!!!!!!!! My quality of life is worse than when I made 65K/year before I moved here! Really folks. This city is insane. I am getting out. I have loved Canada and loved Vancouver, except for the housing situation. I will always have fond memories of the place and will leave being a Canadian citizen but have reluctantly thrown in the towel. I would much prefer to live in Canada than in the US as our values are much more Canadian but I also want a better quality of life.

So perhaps we will return but only if the real estate prices return to earth. From where I sit this is still a far way off.

Humbly, a soon to be former Vancouverite.”

“I am begging my family members up in Vancouver to stay away from real estate, but the kool-aid is strong, my friends.”

SW at vancouvercondo.info December 13th, 2010 at 9:28 am“I was born and raised in Vancouver (thus my interest here) but have lived in Orange County (SoCal) for about 11 years. The similarity of SoCal in 06/07 and Vancouver nowadays is sickeningly obvious.
I am begging my family members up in Vancouver to stay away from real estate, but it is hard going. The kool-aid is strong, my friends.
Good luck Vancouver, you are going to need it. I don’t think you understand how much of the economy is underpinned by an artificial bull real estate market. A world of hurt is coming and nobody will be left untouched.”

Greg Weldon, Market Analyst, interviewed on CKNW – “Vancouver is among the most overpriced real estate markets in the world. You guys are totally tied into this.”

Michael Campbell interviewed investor and market analyst Greg Weldon, of Weldon Financial, on CKNW Money Talks radio show 4 Dec 2010 [9am show], at 9.15am [hat-tip to Renting at vancouvercondo.info 4 Dec 2010 1:18pm]. Extract -
After discussing the global debt bubble, and the sovereign debt crisis, Weldon notes that “timing the failure becomes so difficult”. He discusses the “push for austerity” that is “not [only] happening in Europe”. He then says the following:
“Even when you mention Canada, by some metrics, the math is… Vancouver is among the most, you know, overpriced real estate markets that there is in the world, so, you know, it does hit home, you know, it’s a city that I love, I love visiting, it’s great, we’ve had a lot of fun there, but the reality and the math is, you guys are totally tied into this…”

What are we thinking? – Frank Lloyd Wright Californian Home on 80 Acres compared with more expensive Dunbar Box on 0.15 Acres


.
UnagiDon, in the comments section of our recent post comparing LA and Dunbar houses, points to an article in the NYTimes [2.Dec.2010] featuring the Frank Lloyd-Wright designed ‘Fawcett House’ in Los Banos, California: 3,800 sqft; 6 bedrooms; 80 acre lot. Asking price $2M. Impressive photos here.
The Dunbar box, photo reposted, sold for $2.4M.
With the Frank Lloyd Wright house, you get 536 times the land that you get with the Dunbar house. (6,500 sqft vs 3,484,800 sqft).
Yeah, sure: far from Starbucks, higher taxes, less sunshine of liquid type, but, still…

People of Vancouver: What are we thinking? -vreaa

Recent Dunbar sale: $2.4M:


Los Angeles Compared With Dunbar

Hat-tip to ‘metalhead’ [at RE Talks 29 Nov 2010 8:56am] for pointing out the Bel Air, LA property above, for sale for $2.45M.
“4,200 square feet, 4 bedrooms, 5 bathrooms. Office and staff quarters. Spacious back yard has a heated, free form black bottomed swimming pool, attached spa, barbecue areas, circular sunken fire pit and a large lawn area.”

This is just one of many such examples we could take from LA.
As ‘metal’ suggests, let’s compare this to what you’d get in Dunbar [Westside Vancouver] in a similar price range. Keep in mind that the LA market likely hasn’t yet bottomed.

$2.26M; 3419 W 23rd; 2,838 sqft; 33×122 lot; MLS V857830.

$2.388M; 3688 W 35th; 3,895 sqft; 50×130 lot; MLS V820562

$2.50M; 3356 W 27th; 3,021 sqft; 33×131 lot; MLS V849344

$2.60M; 3930 W 38th; 3,349 sqft; 62×166 lot; MLS V856281.


Afterthought:
For the aesthetes in our readership, we thought we’d add this bonus ‘butt-view’ of the $2.388 Million property.
Where do we sign?
What are we thinking?



Opinion – “I just came back from California after taking a month off. Long story short, I think Vancouver is priced alright in the scheme of things.”

FuturePorscheOwner at RE Talks Nov 27, 2010 1:33 pm“I just came back from California after taking a month off, went to L.A, San Fran, San Jose, San Diego and got to see most of the smaller towns along the way. After talking with a lot of the locals,realtors and such, it became apparent that the market there is still pretty high. This sort of makes me conclude that maybe our prices aren’t that high, there isn’t a city in Canada similar to Vancouver, which has
-Beautiful women/beaches
-Good bar/club scene
-Decent weather all year round
-Clean in comparison to most of the cities I have been to in Canada (regina, toronto, calgary)
-Excellent transportation infrastructure (as compared to BART)

Vancouver is basically is a mix of the Bay Cities:
-Hollywood North (LA)
-Hippie Ville (Berkeley)
-San Jose (Companies like Microsoft, SAP come into mind)
-Pretty big GAY, DINK population (San Fran)
-Amazing beaches (Montrey)

Long story short, I think Vancouver is priced alright in the scheme of things, even going to some of the Uni towns like Berkeley, and Sunnyvale it seems like the prices here are pretty reasonable.”

Vancouver and US City Compared – “I have my feet in both an undervalued market and an overvalued market at the same time, and the difference is night and day.”

Bothsidesnow at vancouvercondo.info November 26th, 2010 at 5:22 pm- “We are renting two accommodations right now- a house in the American midwest and a condo in downtown Vancouver (long story). Both are necessary, but we don’t plan on taking possession for the long term on either (through rental or owning). The GDP of the US city is twice that of Vancouver. It is a much, much wealthier city. The cost of renting the house is about 25 percent more than buying. Similar houses would go for over a million in Vancouver. The cost of renting the condo in Vancouver is about 50 percent less than buying it. I have my feet in both an undervalued market and an overvalued market at the same time, and the difference is night and day.”

[Using the fundamental measure of the price:rent ratio, this would mean that the Vancouver property is 2.5 times overvalued, when compared with the US property. And the US property has very likely not yet bottomed in price for this RE cycle. -vreaa]

Talking With Americans – “I realized just how insane Vancouver prices sound.”

“O would some power the gift to give us to see ourselves as others see us.”
………………………………………….- Robert Burns, ‘To a Louse’

pricedoutfornow at vancouvercondo.info 10 Nov 2010 12.00pm“I was just talking with an American about house prices in Vancouver. She thinks it’s absolutely ludicrous how much we are paying for houses. As I talked to her about all the people I know who have bought houses for $800k, $900k, or a couple condos for $500k, each I realized just how insane it sounds. Meanwhile she’s considering buying a condo in Miami for $100k. On South Beach, walking distance from everything including the beach. She couldn’t believe what I was telling her. She’s lived for awhile in NYC and doesn’t think much of Vancouver, except that it rains a lot and is kind of small. When I step back and listened to what I was telling her, it DOES seem ridiculous. $800k for a falling-down house in our podunk little town? Give me a break!”

Addition:
An Upper-Westside Manhattan condo that had been offered for >$2M, sold for $229K [New York Post, 10 Nov 2010] (88% off!)

Listen To Everyone; Follow No One; Avoid Unquestioning Belief In ‘Experts’

From sacbee.com 21 Oct 2010 [hat-tip 'timbo' at greaterfool.ca] -
“Even financial gurus like Tom Sullivan aren’t immune to the foreclosure mess. The longtime Sacramento investment adviser and commentator, who now works for Fox Business Network, is attempting to unload his former Granite Bay [Sacramento] home in a short sale after being threatened with foreclosure. Sullivan and his wife, Caroline, have listed his five-bedroom, Mediterranean-style house on Wexford Circle for $1.15 million. They paid $2.5 million for the home in 2004 and took out a $1.6 million mortgage.”

“The Sullivans missed their first mortgage payment last October, according to Foreclosures.com. The research firm says Chase Home Finance issued a default notice on the 8,200-square-foot home four months later, in February. The default notice was the first step toward foreclosure. The Sullivans would avoid foreclosure if the short sale goes through, but all the proceeds from the sale would go to the lender, and the Sullivans would get nothing.”

“The market is the market,” said Linda Friery, a Lyon Real Estate agent who is attempting to sell Sullivan’s home. “The property has gone down 50 percent,” she said. “He’s no different than anybody else.” [If they are able to sell, they will have lost $1.35 M in after tax dollars. - ed.]

Sullivan made his early reputation in Sacramento as founder of the Sullivan Group financial-planning firm 26 years ago. He hosted a popular financial and general news show on radio station KFBK (1530 AM), provided financial commentary on KCRA-Channel 3 and wrote an investment advice column for The Bee. Besides anchoring a TV show for Fox Business, he hosts a weekday Fox radio program.” [Be sure to tune in! -ed.]

Magazine Covers As Indicators – And Yet Another Time RE Cover

By now, everybody knows how the Business Week ‘Death Of Equities’ Cover in the early 80′s marked the beginning of the most powerful 20 year equity bull market in history. Since then it’s been fun to play the ‘spot the contrarian indicator cover’ game. Look further down the right sidebar for examples of classic top of the RE bubble covers, in the US and Vancouver. The above illustration is from a very cute analysis of cartoons of bulls and bears on Barron’s covers over the last 2 years, as contrarian indicators, from Serge Farra, etf-corner.com, 31 Oct 2010.

This recent Time magazine cover is emotionally complex and doesn’t easily act as a predictor either way. But still, perhaps that sad fence predicts a mild bounce in US RE (though we believe the ultimate US RE lows are still further ahead).