From the experience of realtor Mike Stewart (and contrary to the opinion of many), very few buyers are overextending themselves. This from RE Talks 21 Nov 2009 10:14 pm-
“The people I am working with are not at the limit, I would say 70%+ are low ratio and most of these people are working with a lot of equity. I don’t come across people very often who are limiting what they do from a lifestyle perspective so they can have more Real Estate. People tell me they want to have money/time to do the things they value and they buy property they can comfortably afford. The people I work with see the low rates as a way to pay off their mortgages quicker or keep payments lower than they normally would be and don’t use it as a means to buy something they couldn’t afford. These people tend to be very cautious with property transactions and how they finance these transactions. This caution could be seen in how rare foreclosures were in my market during the economic crisis. This prudence and caution was the reason for this.”
In parts of Vancouver, such as the Vancouver Eastside, the market has reached fever pitch. This article in the Globe and Mail by Kerry Gold, 19 Nov 2009 6:03 pm, has so many important anecdotal points regarding sentiment and market activity that vreaa has archived large swatches in this post, and highlighted two stories from it in the posts above.
“In the last three months, a heritage house at 274 E. 20th Ave. was listed for $959,000 and sold for $320,000 above asking, after eight days on the market. A heritage fixer-upper at 265 E. 24th was listed for $749,000 and sold for $1,033,000 within a mere 13 days. A month later, another house nearby at 214 E. 24th, was listed for $749,000 and sold for $950,000 within six days. A typical Vancouver Special at 4554 Walden St. was listed for $730,000 and sold eight days later for $958,000. All those houses were in the trendy Main Street area.”
“It’s very topical,” says realtor Rod MacKay. “Other places [in the country] are strong, but nobody’s seen anything like this. What’s really surprising is nobody anticipated the six-month dry spell being as slow as it was, and prices coming up as much. No one anticipated it bouncing back so far and so quickly.”
“At the beginning of this spring’s buying frenzy, buyers were offering $100,000 above asking in some cases. But by September and October, there were buyers – no doubt tired of being repeatedly out-bid – who are making offers so far above the asking price they couldn’t lose. In the case of the house at 265 E. 24th, it went for $284,000 above asking. “That takes a lot of stones to do that,” says the selling agent Darryl Sjerven. “There were 18 offers on that house. So you go in there, write an offer, and there are 17 other offers and you don’t know what any of them are. They could all be just $10,000 over asking. To go and write $284,000 over takes a lot of guts.”
To describe the bidding mentality these last few months, Mr. Sjerven uses the analogy of a “hang loose” hand gesture – with the three middle fingers curled under and pinkie and thumb sticking out.“Say you get five offers on a house, and suppose the house is listed at $750,000. The guy with the pinkie does not get it, he doesn’t know what’s going on,” says Mr. Sjerven. “Even though there are four other offers, he’ll offer you $700,000 subject to sale of his home and if he gets financing and everything. Then you get the typical pack in the middle, they’ll go around $785,000, or something like that. There’ll be a cluster of those people. Then there’s the thumb. It sticks right over the side and says, ‘this is my house. I want this house.’ He’s far enough ahead that it doesn’t get into further bidding or anything like that. And he buys that house.”
A few months ago, it seemed like the only houses being sold in bidding wars were the “hot properties,” the ones with three bedrooms up, new granite counter tops, and a gleaming in-law suite downstairs. More recently, the bidding wars have been over houses that aren’t so hot, such as that Vancouver Special that went for above asking.“The house wasn’t renovated or anything,” says selling agent Kenny Wong. “It was 37 years old. It had the original “shagadelic” carpets. It was on a 33-by-110 lot. It wasn’t even a standard lot. “I had a hard time selling a Vancouver Special in the winter – a lot of people made low-ball offers,” he adds. “Now they are going over asking.”
Although overall prices aren’t quite at pre-correction levels, for buyers it has felt like the spring of 2008 again.
As to where the market will be in early 2010, the current frenzy appears to be abating and realtors like Mr. Sjerven expect the lull to last over the winter and through to the end of the Olympics. Not many people like to list or buy homes around the holiday season, and few are going to want to sell around the time of the Games, when it could be hard to get around. That five-month lull will create “pent-up demand” that will trigger another frenzy, says Mr. Sjerven. “Once you clear the Olympics out of the way and we’re into April, it will be a race to those listings. Spring is going to rock.”
As markets reach extremes, more and more people become aware of the resultant disparities. Even though most of us prefer to stay put, the benefits of making a move start crossing thresholds that cause some people to take action. This from Peter Pan at greaterfool.ca on 21 Nov 2009 at 1:41 am -
“I’m looking to get the hell out of Vancouver and move to the US… Why should I stay here and pay exorbitant RE prices when I can move to Oregon, make more money with my qualifications, enjoy a better climate, pay less taxes and buy a beautiful home for 500K?”
“I live in Van, and it rains often. This last 12 mths has been a dry exception, not the rule. I don’t mind the rain and prefer it to snow, but I don’t know why locals here pretend that it doesn’t rain often and get defensive when others point it out. Does the blind jingoistic patriotism really run that deep? Are we Vancouverites becoming as unthinkingly defensive of our little backwater as inbred hillbillies? It’s like the Emperor’s New Clothes and no one wants to admit the obvious: it’s Raincouver on the Wet Coast; just admit it and get over it already.”
“Please let us in on the secret. How is it that people can afford million dollar homes? I still don’t get it. I’m single and have a salary that is in the high five-figures, which puts me up in the top 20% of households in Vancouver, yet I can’t afford to purchase a SFH in East Vancouver.”
As home prices inflate to stratospheric levels, the utility of the sale price of many homes would cause a percentage of owners to ‘cash in’ – sell, move/rent, and live comfortably on the proceeds. (As one owner planning on selling and leaving Vancouver told vreaa, “I’ll never have to work another winter”.) The flip side of this is that many potential buyers are now sitting on their hands, as they are aware of the utility of the money that they save by doing so. This position is expressed here by Krazy Kanuck at greaterfool.ca 17 Nov 2009 11:05 pm, who has the added advantage of “living temporarily” in Vancouver, which probably gives him useful perspective. -
“I’m living temporarily in Vancouver (the epicenter of delusion), and I can’t wrap my head around the fact that if someone gave me $1 million, I could either: 1) buy a house here…and not a great one, only a good one, OR 2) buy $1 million worth of dividend stock funds, rent the house, put food on the table, and probably run a car. (I’m assuming a 3.6% yield…or $3k a month….for doing NOTHING!!) And my friends call me Krazy.”
“My dreams of buying cheap real estate are over. I don’t need to own, and current buyers are far crazier than I would have *ever* expected. We just witnessed a worldwide financial crisis – the biggest in 80 years – and they are lining up to mortgage their lives away for a dream. Casting themselves onto the rocks is more like how I see it, because I don’t see how this could possibly be over. I save enough money to provide decent financial security for my family and will continue to do so. I’m 30 years old. It would feel good to settle down, but instead I’m going to remain flexible about where I live and what job I take.”
The real estate boom has shut out some prudent citizens who would, under more normal circumstances, be homeowners. Some feel despair, others great inconvenience. Some gain solace from local and national real estate blogs, in the following case, from Garth Turner’s greaterfool.ca. This post by ‘Mom Society’ at greaterfool.ca 16 Nov 2009 10:33 pm appears to be an update and elaboration from the same poster whose earlier thoughts are archived at VREAA 7 Nov 2009 -
“We desperately want to buy a place with a yard as we have an 18 months old son and he needs a place to play. Although our annual income is around $15,000 more than average, we still find we can not afford anything with a yard, even in Surrey. It is annoying to see almost all our friends have moved to their new houses recently. Our hearts sink every time we hear mainstream media telling us next year housing price will continue to go up. Actually we don’t care if your [Garth Turner's] prediction would be accurate, no one has crystal ball. At least your blog gives us hope in this raining winter, give us a hope to allow us still dream we may have a home with yard in the future. Thank you. If we are belonging to middle class or working class, I feel [we are not alone in] our sadness.”
“I was sitting in the Starbucks on the corner of Denman and Davie this morning, doing a bit of work and listening to a group of 4 construction tradesmen at the table behind me talking about all the layoffs in the places they work, and stating that they were beginning to get “freaked out” by the prospect of losing their jobs while trying to pay their mortgages. They were most worried by the fact that it’s not just the new hires being let go, but also people with “seniority”. I felt sorry for them, as they genuinely sounded worried, and seemed like nice enough guys.”
“I was at the Daiso $2 shop to buy toilet brushes and brooms. And I overhead a conversation. A guy just bought a house with a mortgage and was checking with his friends if the bank would lend him another $6K for CHMC insurance.”
M- : “I’m wondering who’s left to buy– in my group of friends and acquaintances, my observations on who has bought are:
-2006-2008: non-bearish friends and acquaintances who could really (or in two cases couldn’t) afford it, bought.
-2009: bearish friends and acquaintances bought (all of them).
Yep, in my circle of friends and acquaintances, all of my bearish friends (with the means to buy) have bought. There are two exceptions: myself, and a couple who just returned from overseas. Aside from them, the only other renters work low-wage jobs, or are recent graduates.”
mohican: “I have observed the same thing within my circle as well. Including myself, most bearish friends have purchased already. They largely took advantage of the winter 2008 price dip and negotiated hard to get a decent deal. Many are still bearish – including me – but just wanted a little lifestyle certainty and were willing to pay for it. I don’t know where the future buyers will come from – overseas? The ownership rate is at an all time high right now as per statscan.”
david: “When bears capitulate isn’t that the sign of a market peak?”
“My rent was $975 a month for a crappy, 35 year old one bedroom that didn’t have insuite laundry or anything, and where the landlord would knock twice then enter my suite without advance notice for non-emergencies, once even while I was on the toilet. Now, my mortgage is the same for a 12 year old one bedroom with laundry, fireplace, dishwasher. This includes maintenance fee. And I can have a pet. And no landlord can come in because he feels like it. Yes, the interest rates will rise, but my salary will also increase. If I’m laid off, or my mortgage skyrockets, I’ll work my ass off to keep it all together. I am confident in my ability to make it work. Downpayment? Some people work two jobs and weekends for years and years and years to save up for one; others inherit it when a loved one passes away; others borrow money interest-free from family, and others have it handed to them by well-to-do parents who would rather their kids have a condo than live in a dump run by a slumlord. Do you blame them? It’s not really anyone’s business where a downpayment comes from. It’s not a crime to have a downpayment.”
“Even though he had never purchased real estate before, Alym Abdulla could sense that the market was heating up as he began looking at downtown condos last spring. The 24-year-old pharmacist started seeing suites in late March, and before long he realized that some of the units were receiving multiple offers from prospective buyers.
“I must have looked at close to 50 places,” Abdulla told the Georgia Straight in a recent interview in his living room. “I put in offers on two other places that didn’t go through because the market started to pick up.”
He said he was getting discouraged and was ready to quit when his real-estate agent, Stu Bell, recommended that he check out a home in a Bosa-developed building near the corner of Hornby and Smithe streets. When Abdulla entered the suite in the middle of May, he was immediately impressed by the layout, which featured two full bedrooms, each with an en suite bathroom, on either side of the living room. “The thing that really sold me on this place was the balcony,” he said. “It’s quite large. It makes you feel like you’re not trapped in your little shoebox downtown.”
Abdulla ended up paying the $508,000 list price. He said he bought then because he wanted to take advantage of the low interest rates. With a smile, he acknowledged that some of his friends look at him differently now that he’s a homeowner: “One of my friends who I used to live with in university, he’s like, ‘I feel since you bought your place, you’ve matured. You’ve completely changed in the way that you are. Before, we used to live the student lifestyle. Now, you’re always cleaning your place. You have plants. You look after them. You’ve even got a cat now. It’s like you’re an adult.’ ”
There are many stories about couples at odds regarding RE decisions, but only a few clearly described on Vancouver blogs. These two anecdotes come from greaterfool.ca and it is unclear thus far whether they originate from Vancouver or other parts of the country. Regardless, they do represent some of the social conflict being experienced in Vancouver.
“In the past few months we’ve seen just about all of our non-owning friends jump into the market and buy their first home. This is driving my wife crazy.. to the point where we’re in marriage counselling because she wants to buy and I don’t. With her, it’s the emotional attachment to pride of ownership. With me, it’s not buying so that we don’t devastate our future enjoyment of life. I can’t seem to negotiate with her on this. Is there any middle ground you can think of? I’ve suggested splitting the difference and buying half a house, but that doesn’t make any sense to either of us. Do you have any suggestions for me?”
“I know exactly what you are talking about. I am in the same situation as you. Counselling and the whole bit. I have managed to delay the purchase pressure for a year by agreeing to rent a similar place to what we would buy in the area we want to live for one year. After the year is up who knows but it gives me a year to come up with a new plan. Good luck.”
Vancouver Realtor Tom Everitt Seals the Deal. Also starring uncanny thinktom look-alike, Richard Kind (super-geek ‘Cousin Andy’ in ‘Curb Your Enthusiasm’).
A Vancouverite becomes aware of the fact that they’ve been unduly influenced by the herd, and decides they’re better off elsewhere. This striking story from Rust at vancouvercondo.info 10th Nov 2009 at 8:56 am -
“I’ve been doing more travel for work, and the thing that always surprised me is how nice other cities are. Even though I don’t believe it logically, it seems like the ‘best place on earth’-hype has actually gotten to me subconsciously. I find myself almost surprised when I notice things that are far more appealing about other cities with lower cost of living. It’s been an eye opener. Right now family and work keeps me here, but prices would have to drop DRAMATICALLY for me to even consider buying here. It’s become clear to me lately that I’m just not interested in living in Vancouver long term.”
Home owners have experienced paper and emotional gains from rising RE prices, and the construction industry has obviously experienced a period of boom. What is less obvious is that, for many, real estate prices have made Vancouver a less attractive city in which to live and work. Business have left Vancouver, or avoided it in the first place. Recent job cuts have people talking about this effect -
“Let’s face it Kodak Canada is what is left of Creo. The [major] job cuts were in 2002 and 2003. There is almost nothing left there now. I don’t think I know anyone left working there, maybe a few. It won’t make a difference. The real story is how many jobs in hi-tech did this real estate boom kill? How many startups never bothered? How many real jobs vanished or were never created? The damage is done. Seriously, crash or no crash I can’t see myself moving back to Vancouver.”
“I took a high-tech management program from SFU back in the late 80’s when it looked like Vancouver had a real future in high tech. Our focus companies were Glenayre and Creo. For a metro to be a growth centre for high tech, it must be attractive to professional families. Vancouver was in the 80’s and 90’s and that’s the major reason why capital and workers were attracted here for the many startups. Make the metro unattractive, and you kill high tech. Housing in Seattle is a good deal cheaper than in Vancouver, and it is and has always been a major high tech hub – why on earth would anyone locate here instead of there, except to employ a few peons who couldn’t get H1B’s? Inside Canada look at Ottawa, or Waterloo, which are even cheaper. If housing gets down to and stays at 80’s real prices, high tech may get going again, but it looks like we’ve slipped back 20 years or more.”
“Looking after a bank repo at King’s Landing. Bankruptcy for two swinging 20 year olds and two aged Mainland Chinese folks (the parents who funded them)! The old folks are dumping their other two condo’s cause they co-signed! All heading back to China it seems. 500K loss after mortgage was paid off.”
“We dare not dream to buy a home in Vancouver, actually we can not afford anything with a yard for a kid to play in, in Surrey, or Maple Ridge, although I worked for several years as a full time programmer. We feel shame to be poor and working poor.”
househunting: “I am house hunting right now and it is not looking good. I am probably going to rent until more listing show up in the spring. Is it worth it to get my license to purchase my my home? What is the process and what is the cost? … I don’t have much faith in realtors, and would rather pay myself the commission.”
Lost Soul: “You do realize that having a Realtor is not a pre-requisite to buying a place, don’t you?”
househunting: “It is in my case. Got a realtor in the family that kinda have to use. Rather get my own license and do it myself.”
islandlandlord: “If he/she can’t do the job then I’d cut him loose and find someone who can. Maybe things are different in your family, but I wouldn’t hesitate to drop him.”
househunting: “I wish it were that easy. When it is your spouses immediate family it’s a little hard. Any info on how long it takes to get a license?”
Multiple Offer: “Since there is a realtor in the family, why not offer to split the commission with him/her and save the trouble?”
househunting: “Thanks for the response. It has nothing to do with the commission. If I could use another realtor I would. I just don’t want to have to deal with my current realtor (MIL [my mother-in-law]) and the only way is to be my own realtor without opening up a can of worms. I have many friends that are realtors that I could use, but that would cause a lot problems.”
“I really don’t get this silliness. My wife says “I don’t care what anyone says, there is no recession in Vancouver”. All she comments about is the wealthy cars, and stupid prices of RE. I keep trying to tell her that Vancouver is a city living on credit and home equity loans, the music will stop soon. She doesn’t buy it anymore. She IS starting to believe it’s different here. Shit, so am I!!!??!?!? EVERYTHING is defying all logic and reason. Sure, I know people are buying places based on variable rates of 2% but even at that, I still can’t fathom how ( or why) people are buying and getting $700k mortgages on $100k household incomes. Man I can’t wait for rates to go up!”
“I just finished my [Mortgage Broker] course a few days ago. Three weeks of my life I will never get back. … There is only one official mortgage broker course, [in order] to become licensed, offered through UBC. It is very similar to the Real Estate course that Sauder offers. The requirements to write the exam, and the course itself, was beyond easy. This means the mortgage industry is not concerned about saturation, which makes me wonder what duty they serve to the existing mortgage broker community (the answer is inherent). … The course was useless, boring and easy. You need a 65 and I managed to get 98. Seriously, it’s a joke. … I am not going to do anything special with the course for a while. Once my house is finished and I’ve settled a few issues with some investments I’m going to start a business plan so that in 2 years I can run my own brokerage. We’ll see what happens.”
“There was that big buzz about people renting out their homes and making a killing on it,” said Vancouver resident Tanya Peters. Peters and Tyler Jones planned to get married in Costa Rica during the Games. Their vision was to rent out their house to Olympic visitors to help pay for the wedding. But so far, they have no takers, and now regret not hopping on the gravy train earlier. “I know several people who rented out and did make a lot of money but they rented out a year ago,” Peters said. It appears the Olympic rental market has slowed to a crawl. Jones and Peters have had their home listed on various websites since July. They have dropped their price to $3,000 for two weeks from $5,000.”
“Even though he had never purchased real estate before, Alym Abdulla could sense that the market was heating up as he began looking at downtown condos last spring. The 24-year-old pharmacist started seeing suites in late March, and before long he realized that some of the units were receiving multiple offers from prospective buyers. 
