An Ambivalence Of Riches – “Its HARD to leave once you’ve lived in Van. Had I never left Calgary I could have lived there for the rest of my life and been satisfied.”

“My husband and I moved to Vancouver from Calgary 3 years ago. In terms of employment and housing, were not doing so hot out here. So why do we stay and rent a crappy basement suite?…the reason is you think Calgary is nice and green until you move to Van. That’s when you realize how truly cold Calgary winters are and how not-so-green it really is (just some random pine and poplar trees spread out over fields, really). Its HARD to leave once you’ve lived in Van. Had I never left Calgary I could have lived there for the rest of my life and been satisfied (perhaps, happy) and would have never seen the weather and beauty Van has to offer. Now we have to make the difficult decision to go back to Calgary since living in Van has cost us a lot. We have family and friends back home (Calgary) and they’re all in their late 20′s like us, they’re getting great jobs, have money to travel, and are buying up 300,000 houses (not apartments, not townhouses…actual houses with 3 or more bedrooms and a backyard). My advice to anyone is, if you live in Alberta, stay there, don’t TRY Vancouver, it’s very hard to leave once you’re here just because of how beautiful it is.”
- LisaMK at VREAA 3 Jun 2012 1:07pm

Full and satisfying lives can be had in Vancouver and in Calgary… and in hundreds of other places around the globe.
- vreaa

“Are we all lying to each other? How the f*%#k are people affording to live in Vancouver?”

“Today I read an article in the Vancouver Sun, which stated that …the combined cost of mortgage payments, utilities and property taxes costs the average Vancouverite 88.9% of their household income. … Something is really, really wrong here. How the f*%#k are people affording to live on less than 12% of their incomes?

My husband and I scratch our heads about this all the time. We feel like we are beyond cash poor. We’re certainly not financial wizards, but we take pride in the fact that we manage our debts and try as much as we can to live within our means. Meanwhile, we see people renovating homes, buying new cars, new clothes, paying for daycare, nannies, dinners out, vacations etc. etc. Are all of these people getting by on 12% of their incomes or is there a massive amount of credit spending happening behind closed doors? Are young families around this city floating their lifestyles with plastic? I fear, for many, this may be the case.

For most of us in the “young parent” stage of life, we’re literally “just getting by”…however, I think our definition of scraping through a month has drastically changed. There are conveniences and luxuries we have become used to that are nearly impossible to imagine forgoing. I’m guilty myself of not using up everything in my pantry and going out to buy more groceries (although I don’t shop at the infamous “Whole Paycheque”…something that completely boggles my mind – how in the heck to people afford to do their shopping there??).

Aside from our own needs, which can largely be attributed to growing up in a culture that values consumerism (an entire conversation in itself), and our government’s role in the state of our economy, there is definitely something askew when home ownership becomes so coveted and, at the same time, overpriced that people literally finance their lives away. Now, I’m no economist, but what then happens when the s*%t hits the fan, interest rates rise and these families are not only sat with mortgages they cannot afford, but massive amounts of credit debt incurred to actually “live”?”

- Melissa Carr at TheThirtiesGrind 29 May 2012 [hat-tip to OH YAH]
—

Nobody in Vancouver is living on just 12% of their income. The math reflects that the average bungalow in Vancouver would cost an average Vancouver household 88.9% of their (get this) pre-tax income. So, in short no average households are buying average bungalows any longer… they simply can’t afford them.
Which is not to say that Melissa’s indignation and exasperation isn’t justified. It is. Vancouver is very, very overpriced, and the 88.9% figure indicates how spectacularly overpriced it is… prices are two to three times those determined by fundamental value.
Housing bulls argue that this simply means that, as in Manhattan, Monaco, and Tokyo, bungalows have become a coveted property, only for the mega-wealthy, and that ‘average’ Vancouver families should accept the ‘new average’ — that they should be happy with properties like a condo or town home in New West or White Rock, or a modest condo closer to Vancouver, or perhaps a basement suite.
We disagree. Just fly into or out of YVR… does that look like Tokyo?.. No! Bungalows as far as the eye can see! (Bungalows, and land, by the way.) Bungalows in Vancouver will never be cheap, but they will certainly become a lot cheaper than they are now.
- vreaa

Renter Lease Condition ‘Experiment’ – “I have a friend in our office who is looking to rent. He commented how “fishy, desperate, and deceitful” most of the landlords he had spoken to seem to be. He didn’t trust any of them. I told him to try my experiment…”

“I have a friend in our office who is looking to rent for his family as he just moved here from BC, and he was commenting the other day how “fishy, desperate, and deceitful” most of the landlords of the numerous vacant properties he had spoken to seem to be. He didn’t trust any of them to be frank and he felt that he was getting set up as the renter “in situ” to increase the listing value and prospect of selling the property he was looking at moving into. As he asked my advise a few weeks ago about his concerns, I told him to try my experiment:
Tell your prospective landlord that you “will” sign a long term lease (12+ months) on one proviso that will be written into the contract.
If the property is listed, or the ownership changes hands for any reason, the lease becomes null and void and you can exit the property without penalty and after 30 days notice upon becoming aware of either the listing, or the transfer of ownership, and that they are legally obligated to advise you of same when it occurs.
No one agreed to it, a couple of them had the blood rush out of their faces after repeatedly telling him they were not going to list the place during his interviews (so why would this condition matter then…..right ?) and one confessed the place was getting listed as soon as she put someone in it. He has decided to rent a purpose built luxury condo rental from a national property managment company instead……someone that I used to rent from.”
- Carioca Canuck at VREAA 27 May 2012 9:54pm

“Talked to a friend tonight who just moved into a $700K rental apartment at UBC. The wood-framed building, on leased land, is two years old and floors are already sagging.”

“Talked to a friend tonight who just moved into a rental apartment at UBC. Building is two years old and floors are already sagging, so much that her closet doors keep opening by themselves, and drawers have a hard time staying closed…
Market value? $700,000, for a wood frame condo on leased land.”
- jumpin in at VCI 30 may 2012 10:48pm

Shift In Attitude – “I have a co-worker who used to espouse the whole “buying with family” strategy. I’ve noticed a change in her attitude these past few months. Twice now she’s asked me what I pay in rent.”

“I have a co-worker who used to espouse the whole “buying with family”
strategy. She did exactly that about 2.5 years ago, buying a large (very nice) home in the suburbs with her sister and brother-in-law (co-worker herself is also married).
As a renter (natch) I used to get the whole bull spiel from her– you’re just paying someone else’s mortgage, there’s limited land, prices will only go up, up, up! Familiar refrains to many on this site.
But I’ve noticed a change in her attitude these past few months. Twice now she’s asked me what I pay in rent ($700, includes everything but laundry, and yup it’s a 2 bedroom basement suite in Surrey, so laugh away– I’m loving it). The second time I told her, she admitted “That’s really good”. Confessed to me shortly after that she’s tired of sharing space with another couple. Apparently the brother-in-law is lazy, doesn’t help out equally, and both sister and brother-in-law are very disorganized in paying their half of the bills. Count on her to do it all, with the promise to pay her back.
Guess she’s tired of playing mommy. Her husband apparently rarely leaves their bedroom, preferring the one room where they don’t have to share space. All of their initial plans– convert the basement to a suite, expand the deck, re-finish furnishings– have fallen by the wayside due to lack of help from the other half of the house. She’s just given up, and I suspect she’s just waiting for their 5 year term to be up to sell.
Here’s the kicker– in an attempt to make herself feel better and (I think) redeem her situation in my eyes, she proudly told me about a month ago that she and her husband paid off just under $8000 of their mortgage last year. They have minimal cash savings, so this $8000 is what their “savings” increased by in one year (in their minds, in any case). I didn’t have the heart to tell her that my partner and I had socked away over four times that amount in the same period of time. All made liquid more easily than equity.
I know what the raging bulls will say- “This is the internet. You can say whatever you want here, and nobody can verify it.” Fine. Believe that to your detriment. But I can’t be the only one sensing a shift in attitude. It’s oh-so-subtle, but it’s there. And it’s different than 2008, that’s for sure.”
- Rololo at VREAA 22 May 2012 9:12pm

“We have been looking to rent. Most landlords seemed pretty eager, were willing to offer at least $100 off and almost hounded us when we didn’t call back. The same units are still on craigslist, indicating an oversupply of rental units (or a price mismatch).”

“A little off-topic but I wondered what you guys would make of the rental market. We have been looking to rent for a few weeks now and have seen mostly tower and new condo units (1BR and 2BR) for $1100 to $1450. Most landlords seemed pretty eager, were willing to offer at least $100 off and almost hounded us when we didn’t call back.I can still see the same units on craigslist that were offered 3 weeks ago, indicating an oversupply of rental units (or a price mismatch). Is there an actual excess of housing in BC or do I just happen to look at an unattractive market slice? Do you guys think rents are going to go up (more and more people who assume the crash will happen are waiting to buy, therefore increasing demand for rentals) or down (since desperate investors need to rent out their units even at a loss)?”
- suspectum at VCI 22 May 2012 11:32am

Professional Landlord to Amateur Landlord: “You may find that all your potential ‘dudes and dudettes in the basement forking over $1K per month’ are rare…and getting rarer.”

“Currently we are having difficulty renting in one of our downtown Vancouver apt blocks.
Not to mention the surrey apt is not at full capacity either.
You may find that all your potential ‘dudes and dudettes in the basement forking over a g ‘ are rare…and getting rarer.
Good luck finding renters dawg.
We are pro’s at this and we are experiencing the aforementioned lack of renters right now.
Do you really want to have a battle for renters with a national company that has very deep pockets?
We can rent the apts very cheap indeed if we have to.
Give it some thought eh?”
- a post by commenter ‘bill’ on greater fool.ca, 19 May 2012, who appears to be a professional property manager.

Basement living, Positive perspective

“Mr Ai says he is committed to staying in China, but he is also keen to create a European base in the cellar of the Berlin studio of his friend Olafur Eliasson, a Danish-Icelandic artist. His aspiration is that the space, which Mr Ai describes as a bunker with no light that has survived two world wars, will be renovated into something that functions as both a studio and an artwork. The location appeals to him for “strange, personal reasons”, he says. He had lived in an earthen pit as a child after his father was banished to Xinjiang. Enduring hardship, whether in dirt holes or dark interrogation rooms, is in the artist’s blood. So is making art.
“The art always wins,” Mr Ai says. “Anything can happen to me, but the art will stay.” Mr Ai’s legacy as a human-rights activist remains uncertain, but his sculptures and photographs are lasting memorials to his wit and courage.
- from ‘Artistic licence – China’s most famous artist talks about his work and how it confounded his jailers’ an article in ‘The Economist‘ [5 May 2012] about the artist Ai Weiwei.

Calgary After-Dinner RE Chat – “Renting is scoffed at. These bulls apparently do not believe that any significant economic or political events could impact Canadian RE values. Denial is powerful.”

“Was at a swank inner party last night (here in Calgary where I live) with 6 couples including my wife and I. At around 9:00pm when the table had been cleared and the many pre-dinner drinks and about 8 or 9 bottles of utterly intoxicating wine had been consumed, the after dinner whisky, scotch, and cocktials started to flow and the conversation around the table turned to real estate, economics, and politics.
The host couple (close personal friends of ours) and my wife and I were the only RE bears at a table full of RE bulls. Time for a little background, the host was a wealthy doctor who acquired his home on a golf course 11 years ago for about 1/3 of what it might be sold for today. He owes about $200K and will have the mortgage paid in full in 24 more months. If the property dropped back to what he paid for it they would not be materially financially impacted in any way, since they didn’t know that, or plan for, any appreciation due to a boom in RE values. They built the house to live in and pay off in a decade. It is one of a portfolio of many international properties that they own, amongst other things. The correct definition of homeowner could be applied here. We are renters here, even though we own a single piece of property in another continent that is paid for. Over the last 11 years we have saved a mid 6 figure sum in cash by renting, staying out of debt and living within our means.
These bulls apparently do not believe that any significant international economic or political events could impact Canadian RE values. Witness the election of a socialist to the presidency of France for example and the ramifications thereof. The Euro zone will create problems for all of us. As will the US and China.
It is also their entrenched belief that interest rates will never rise in Canada for a very, very, long time. Even though as other nations react and perhaps have to raise rates to attract capital in order to keep their financial ships afloat, poor little ole’ Canada will have no choice but to follow along or be left behind. Of course, we may just raise rates due to the bubble (that does not exist mind you) because we need to stop the madness and eventually one government will do so of their own accord when they come out of the ether.
Renting is scoffed at, merely because it does not support the last generations ingrained mental foundation of wealth creation, that all of your eggs must be in a piece of property or you are in a class lower than everyone else. When I was explaining that a renter can do just as well as, or IMHO better, than someone who had all of their net worth in a single piece of property, the guffaws could be heard round the table except at our end. Yet they could not, nor would they even try, to rebut our position with logic facts and reason, since perhaps they knew we held all the cards. Their arguments were entirely emotional in scope, and easily debunked. Just like any RE agents sales pitch.
At the end of the night I was looking at them and, to me anyways, it seemed that they were all dressed in black pants and shirts while wearing brand new white Nikes…… waiting for the RE comet to take them away (a la ‘Heaven’s Gate’). Denial is a powerful belief system.”
- Carioca Canuck at VREAA 6 May 2012 2:43pm

“My girlfriend and I have been looking to rent in the tricities, looking at roughly 20 properties so far. The prospective landlords seemed pretty desperate; most seem to have bought as “investors”. A lot of them called us back when we didn’t contact them.”

“My girlfriend and I have been looking to rent in the tricities for a few weeks, looking at roughly 20 properties so far. The prospective landlords seemed pretty desperate. A lot of them called us back when we didn’t contact them after a showing, we were able to negotiate 10% discounts (on average) and short-term contracts. Most apartments were in the $1000 to $1200 range and seem to be hard to rent out. Most landlords seem to have bought as “investors”, one guy even using student loans. There definitely seems to be an oversupply of rentals (at the current price of $1100 for a 550 – 800 square foot, fairly new building with granite countertops etc landlords re-advertise for weeks on criagslist, indicating a difficult market for them). I see this as the first step of “reality kicking into gear”. Once these people can no longer pay their mortgages and fees (most places sell for about $300K, making a 25 year 0 down mortgage roughly $2000 a month plus $250 condo fees plus $250 tax, adding up to $2500, double what rent would generate) the foreclosures will begin. Of the $2500 a month, $800 are interest, making the “carrying cost” of taxes, int. and fees a total of $1300… they literally lose $200 every month if prices are stable. If they drop, they are even worse…”
- suspectum at VCI 1 may 2012 1:01pm [hat-tip jesse]

“Be Careful Where You Rent”

“I am currently looking for a house to rent for my family. We refuse to buy in this market. I always google the address of the place before I even call if I am interested. A lot of times it comes up as recently sold (this happens A LOT). It is a little scary when this comes up, because the house being bought more times than not is for speculative reasons.
This one was a whole different story. The house was a grow op… twice!
Be careful where you rent!”
- from ‘anonymous’ via e-mail 1 May 2012

—

The address is the same in the two documents.
- vreaa

“I figured they’d be asking maybe $800,000 for what’ll likely be a $500,000 house in a post-bubble world. Turns out I was $300,000 under. That’s right: $1.1 million. Mind-blowing. Just mind-blowing.”

“Some of you might remember my photo essay from a few weeks ago, re: the non-stop construction insanity in my South Surrey neighbourhood. Well, one of those 200-plus new homes just came on the market. 3000 sq ft and a decent sized yard (one of the few new homes around here that does). But I tells ya, it sure *seemed* like it was slapped together in a month. If it’s like everything else they’re puking up down here, it’ll be looking pretty rough within a year. And don’t get me started on the landscaping. Does “dirt” count as landscaping?

Anywho, the place is just seven or eight doors down from our $1600 rental on Zero Ave. In other words, we both face the US. Thing is, we face a forest. They face low-rent apartments (including the obligatory crappy looking exteriors, broken cars, etc, etc) in a lousy neighbourhood of Blaine. A neighbourhood that won’t be upgraded in any of our lifetimes. They’re also close enough to the Pacific Highway border crossing that they’ll awake to the sound of long-haul semis shuffling around night after night after night.

I figured they’d be asking maybe $800,000 for what’ll likely be a $500,000 house in a post-bubble world. Turns out I was $300,000 under. That’s right: $1.1 million. Mind-blowing. Just mind-blowing.”

- Gord, at VREAA, 15 Apr 2012 5:25pm

For backstory, be sure to read:
‘Gord Goble – South Surrey Building Blitzkrieg; Thoughts and Images’
We share Gord’s fascination with the market.
- vreaa

“As a former Montrealer and current Mechanical Engineer, Vancouver isn’t that bad. Starting a family is very simple here. Do what my girlfriend and I do: rent and forget about buying.”

“As a former Montrealer and current mechanical engineer( B.Eng.), Vancouver isn’t that bad. The job market here is very bipolar, that’s all. If you work in the Forest\Mining\Import-Export industries, you’ll be fine. If you’re field is not related to any hard asset, then things are going to be bad.
If you’re in the F.I.R.E industry, then move to Toronto.
Starting a family is very simple here. Do what my girlfriend and I do: rent and forget about buying…”
- Sebastien at VREAA 12 Apr 2012 10:39pm

“So, here’s the punch line… At these killer low rates, AFTER a down payment of $600k, the carrying costs would be $1,374 per month MORE than renting, and that’s not even adding in the $500ish strata, taxes and special levy! Why would I buy? Why?”

“I’m renting a $1.5m house in Vancouver which was renovated to the tune of $180k just before we moved in. I had to peel the protective lining off the steel appliances and fittings in the 4 bathrooms.
“I have a 3 year lease for $2,900 per month. I don’t know how much the taxes are (surely more = better in the self gratifying eye of the locals) but the strata fee is $446, with a special levy of $43,000 (yes thousands) this year to refurb the outdoor and indoor pools and common facilities. It is in Shaugnessy where the cream is turned for its cream.
“So, here’s the punch line… At these killer low rates, AFTER a down payment of $600k (no 95% financing here) the carrying costs would be $1,374 per month MORE than renting and that’s not even adding in the $500ish strata, taxes and special levy! Why would I buy? Why?”
- Mark, as quoted at greaterfool.ca 8 Apr 2012

Why? Well, Mark, we agree you shouldn’t buy, but if you were a citizen who was buying, you’d be buying for two reasons:
1. if your net-worth was large enough that a 50% or more drop in the $1.75 Million home would be very easily tolerated; where such a drop would only make up an insignificant portion of your net-worth;
or,
2. if you were consciously or unconsciously betting (speculating) that the price of this house will rise substantially year after year.
There really is no other reason to buy.
(BTW, are there any $1.7M ‘homes’ left in Shaugnessy? Don’t think so.)
- vreaa

Vancouver Courier Letter Of The Week – “My husband has an excellent job in finance with a great salary we continue to rent little bungalows on the West Side that sell for ridiculous prices. Sadly Vancouver has become our enemy rather than our friend. Every day we discuss leaving.”

‘reality check’, in a comment on these pages, pointed us to the following letter in the Vancouver Courier, with the remark:
“There is a nice whiney letter in yesterday Courier, VREAA, stating how a poor family of 3 who deserves to live on the west side is looking at leaving the province. BOO HOO. I thought you’d enjoy reading it.”

—
Letter of the week
Vancouver Courier APRIL 6, 2012

“To the editor:

Re: “Vancouver realtors cater to wealthy offshore Chinese as middle class gets squeezed,” vancourier.com, April 3.

It’s about time that this major problem be discussed. My husband and I are increasingly frustrated with what is going on in the city and although my husband has an excellent job in finance with a great salary we continue to rent little bungalows on the West Side that sell for ridiculous prices ($2 million or more) to Chinese investor class citizens.

We watch our previous rentals get torn down so that another huge empty house can take its place. It’s heartbreaking and the fact that we have a daughter who is two years old makes the situation more frustrating because we can’t provide a stable situation-a small house, near a good school in a safe neighbourhood. We watch as our trust-fund friends buy on the East Side paying crazy prices to live in houses that need a lot of work in less than perfect neighbourhoods.

We are on our own financially, so sadly Vancouver has become our enemy rather than our friend. Every day we discuss leaving. Our job search in other parts of the nation continues because we are getting the message loud and clear- Vancouver doesn’t want us here.

Sad but true.

Rebecca Kovacs, Vancouver”

“Some are saying that there is no legitimacy to claims that working class or low income people should be able to live in the City of Vancouver.”

“Some are saying that there is no legitimacy to claims that working class or low income people should be able to live in the City of Vancouver–and that the suburbs do these groups just fine.”

“But what’s being forgotten here is that, until recently, working class and low-income people have long lived in the City of Vancouver. I grew up in the City of Vancouver in the 80s and 90s and my dad was a working class non-union labourer who really made a pittance wage. My parents rented. They could afford to rent in Vancouver, not in social housing, in private market rental housing. We had half of a house and a big yard in the City of Vancouver on a working class single wage.”

“My mum’s family was also working class–also rented a big house in Vancouver–that house would probably go for $2 million in today’s market.”

“We’ve been forced out to Surrey because of high rents in Vancouver. The move was a slow progression, for me. My first place when I was 19 and living away from my parents for the first time was a rental in East Vancouver. I shared it with two other roommates. My share of the rent was $350 a month. I had a minimum wage full time job and paying rent in Vancouver was easy. That was in the late 1990s–not so long ago. Things don’t work out with roommates so you move around a lot when you’re young. But with each move I made, the rental market became progressively more difficult. It’s not just a problem with high rents. It’s also simply a lack of vacancies–or the only thing available is total dumps (I had a nice place for $350 a month when I started out)–or they don’t allow you to take your cat. So that forced me out of the city I grew up in.”

“I left Vancouver at the very end of 2001 because already by then the rental market was getting difficult in Vancouver. I went to New Westminster–which is a great city. I believe New Westminster is the densest city in Canada. It is very urban. Great place to live if you are an SFU student–skytrain to Production Way and then a bus up the mountain. So I lived in New West and I went to SFU. Incidentally, my ancestors built New West–I’m just learning about my genealogy now but it’s fascinating. I can trace my ancestry back in New West back to 1865.”

“But then I was renovicted out of New West. Transglobe Property Management went on a buying spree in New West in 2006 and bought up lots of apartments. My apartment building had about 70 units–all 70 households evicted–had to be out by Dec. 31–New Years Eve!!! They renovated and jacked up rents after we were gone. Many longterm tenants in that building, including war veterans and one woman who lived there 40 years. So then I ended up in Surrey–along with a lot of the other people who were evicted from that building.”

“Whalley is one of the last areas of affordable rental housing near skytrain (crucial for people renovicted out of Vancouver/New West but still working in Vancouver) left in the Lower Mainland. But Mayor Dianne Watts is putting up high rise condos everywhere. She’s built a new library. City hall is moving here. It’s not King George Highway anymore, it’s King George Boulevard. It’s not even Whalley anymore, it’s Downtown Surrey. This is to become Metro Vancouver’s second tier downtown core, after Downtown Vancouver. But this is also about gentrification. I’m afraid these dumpy rentals in Whalley are going to be demolished for condos. Then where will I go? Langley? Abbotsford? No skytrain there to connect me with work and social connections back in Vancouver. Time to leave the province soon. I’d rather live in Calgary than Abbotsford.”

“Working class and low income people do have a legitimate claim to the City of Vancouver because we (and our ancestors) built the City. It’s where we grew up. We have memories there. We have friends there. We go to school there. We work there. We access services there and amenities. If you’re gay–the City of Vancouver is so important for community and for just walking down the street holding your partners’ hand. Surrey is just a dump. It’s really hard to find community here and services. Everything is worse here. Even the hospitals and the medical clinics and grocery stores are worse in Surrey. And we have to pay 3 zone $5 bus fares to go back to Vancouver to visit old friends or for jobs. Try that when you’re making minimum wage $10 an hour. Your first hour of work is just to pay for your transit costs (and a lot of jobs only give 4 hour shifts–first hour pays transit, second hour pays lunch, you only net benefit from 2 hours–$20 per shift–less CPP, EI contributions–hardly worth it to work–probably make more money staying in Surrey collecting cans than commuting to Vancouver for min. wage).”

“Having said all that, I do think there is a bit of truth in the statement that the suburbs are becoming more urban and Vancouver is becoming more suburban. I mean, there’s actually a costco in Downtown Vancouver (a mark of suburbia)–but I can’t find a costco in Surrey. I used to go to UBC as well, since I’ve been living in Surrey (en epic commute by transit!). It’s weird that we have a rapid transit skytrain system in Surrey that connects us to Burnaby, SFU area, Lougheed, New West, but as soon as you come into the City of Vancouver you have to get off the train and board a bus the rest of the way to UBC. The west side of Vancouver (where I grew up) does feel like some strange enclavish suburb where hardly anybody lives. Surrey, New West, Burnaby, Lougheed area–all way more urban than vast portions of the City of Vancouver. And the feeling of community is coming here. You can see it right outside on King George Highway (I don’t call it boulevard because I don’t like gentrification)–the diversity of pedestrians walking up and down King George is more than the diversity you get in Vancouver, in terms of class and race. Way more working class feel in Surrey. Way more black people and people from all countries of the world in Surrey–compared to Vancouver which is mainly Chinese. The gays are coming this way too. Surrey has a gay pride parade now. There’s gay pizza shop/cabaret on King George.”

“So I’m actually starting to like Surrey now. I’m not sure I want to go back to Vancouver even if it did suddenly become affordable. I mentioned that I have memories in Vancouver–but it’s disturbing to go back there and see all the changes. The way Vancouver is now is not how it is in my memories. So I can remember more easily how it was, if I stay away. My community isn’t there either, increasingly. So I’m turning a page and I’m never going back to Vancouver no matter how affordable it becomes. But I do think working class people like myself still have a legitimate claim to Vancouver if we want to live there because it’s where we’re from.”

- Joe_Blown_Away_By_High_Housing_Costs at VREAA, 23 Mar 2012 8:21am

Renting Realtor Wants Renter To Buy – “He went on at me about how he can’t stand to see me throwing my money away on rent and that my wife and I need to get ourselves into a little “fixer upper” in the North Shore. Funny thing – he rents – thinks it’s great.”

“My realtor called me a couple of days ago. He does not appreciate the extent of my knowledge about the market, finance, economics, global capital flows, credit markets, asset inflation, leverage, oh – – and the concepts of net present value. He also has probably never read a real estate blog. …
He basically went on at me for about 30 minutes about how he can’t stand to see me throwing my money away on rent and that my wife and I need to get ourselves into a little “fixer upper” in the north shore. There are so many you can get for under a million. He went on to give me all the realtor speak – – – But I do not argue because it’s not possible. Funny thing – he rents – thinks it’s great. Also said HAM not here any more – things are dead. Very difficult to move a house in Richmond right now and mid to high end not really selling. This must be a bad sign because he has never admitted such. Even 5 months ago things were as “busy as ever” even while stats would show otherwise.
This city is delusional and to use a partial quote from the recently departed Goldman exec . . “A visitor from Mars . . . . would wonder if we practice some type of voodoo economics in Vancouver and the entire city is brainwashed” .”
- zrh2yvr at VREAA 14 Mar 2012 7:13am

“All my doctor colleagues think I’m nuts to continue renting, but quite frankly, if I get a big fat mortgage and a nice fancy “doctor house”, I won’t be able to retire.”

This personal account from Tina, a doctor making $350K pa living in Vancouver Westside in a $3Million house that she and her husband rent for $4K per month (as featured by Garth Turner at greaterfool.ca 16 Mar 2012):
“I had anger and bitterness towards the unaffordable market. Last year, I was one of those “house horny” individuals looking to get into the market. After losing out on 4 bidding wars and building up a hatred for lying, arrogant RE agents on the Westside, my husband and I decided to stop looking. It was ruining our lives! I didn’t know who was on the other side of the bidding wars but whether or not it was an Asian immigrant with a million cash or some other crazy westsider like me, it didn’t matter. Thank goodness we found greaterfool.ca. For those who comment on the fact that prices are not dropping, maybe they need to see the daily “red sheet” for the Westside that I still receive every day.
As a physician that earns approx $350k per year, this rent is affordable and still allows us to save, invest and be able to retire in 25 years. But the discrepancy in what I can rent compared to what it would cost me to buy the same house is huge! Of course all my doctor colleagues think I’m nuts to continue renting, but quite frankly Garth, if I get a big fat mortgage and a nice fancy “doctor house” as I like to call it, I won’t be able to retire….”

And the following in the comment section from another MD:
“My wife and I are happily in a similar situation. Only one other colleague that I know of in my age cohort is renting. Numerous others have large mortgages. Our department is having a very hard time recruiting because new MDs cannot afford housing in Vancouver.”
- Burnt Norton, greaterfool.ca, 16 Mar 2012 10:05pm
–

Sensible doctors can’t buy “doctor-houses” in Vancouver.
Vancouverites may not realize this, but this is a problem.
There is pressure on doctors to simply move to places where they can buy accommodations of a standard commensurate with their earning ability.
(And don’t anyone volunteer that they could easily buy a townhome in East Van with that kind of income. That is entirely missing the point.)
- vreaa

Read Before You Rent… – “In my 25 years of renting apartments in Canada, I’ve never before had this trick pulled on me.”

[text in window]

“read before you rent ->

In my 25 years of renting apartments in Canada, I’ve never had this trick pulled on me.

We found this lovely place last March.
When we signed the lease, the landlady had pre-ticked the box that said we would vacate after our one-year term.
We said “oh no, we’re looking for a place to live long term. We’d like to go month-to-month after that.”
She said she would negotiate a new lease with us next year and that this is how she does things.

We very soon found out why…

Later that spring, I asked her if I could put in a garden and she said I could put pots on the conrete and slabs where I have put pots.
After I invested $500, and the garden was in full bloom, she said I had to redue to 2 pots – one each slab.
We refused and stood up for ourselves, as the garden gave us and all of our neighbours great pleasure and no problem.
She backed down at the time, but now refuses to negotiate a new lease with us.

We paid our rent on time every single month. PLUS we asked permission for our garden first, and she said yes!

We arent going to bother going to the rental tenancy board.
Shorly after moving in, we watched her do this to a young professional couple who were 8 months pregnant at the time, and the adjudicator at their hearing said “you shouldn’t have signed the lease with the vacate box ticket – I can’t help you.”
And watch, this woman won’t sign a lease with you any other way.
She wants absolute control and she escalates all situations to anger and tells you to move if you don’t like it.
So, beware.
Lovely home. Horrible landlady.

AND DON’T SIGN HER LEASE IF YOU WANT TO STAY LONGER THAN A YEAR.

She’s a master at using this trick to legally force tenants out.
Good Luck!”

—-
[The above care of 'Aldus Huxtable', via e-mail, who adds "Spotted whilst out on a walk, one for the archives? An evolved by-product of amateur landlords? Perhaps we will see a lot of speculators resort to odd maneuvers to make the increasing mortgage payments if rates were to increase. Who knows what this landlord's motives were, but, in a city where renting is propping up the market....". (Thanks, Aldus. -ed.)]

“The Carnegie Community Action Project has created a map that shows how property values have increased in the Downtown Eastside.”

“The Carnegie Community Action Project has created a map that shows how property values have increased in the Downtown Eastside. It also tracks the decline in low-cost housing options in the neighbourhood.”

- graphic from ‘Property values shoot up in Downtown Eastside’, Charlie Smith, Georgia Straight 5 Mar 2012. [hat-tip Aldus Huxtable.]

Renter Rant – “I make good money, have done everything right from a financial planning perspective, analysed the market in detail and it hasn’t made any sense to buy in for YEARS. Found out this morning I have to move again. Moving SUCKS!!!!”

“Enough is fcuking enough. Found out this morning I have to move again. My stupid mistake for not setting a 2nd lease. They are selling and cashing out – can’t blame them. They are friends of my brothers and gave us an indication they were holding long-term. SO STUPID OF ME!!! A 2 year old, prego wife, new job – timing could not be worse!
But seriously, I make good money (top 5% of Canadians), have done everything right from a financial planning perspective (pay yourself first, hired experience investors, diversified portfolio blah, blah, blah), analysed the market in detail and it hasn’t made any sense to buy in for YEARS. I couldn’t make myself buy in even back in 2007. But still it keeps going up, and lucky people keep getting to feel smug, and look down their nose at renters, and put themselves in CRAZY levels of debt. What the heck are you supposed to do get some stability (don’t answer that – I know get a lease – STUPID ME!). The very basic house I am in (getting booted from), in the neighborhood I grew up in will list and sell quickly for $850K!!!! Blows my mind.
All of this brought to you by our f’d up government who think grants to get more people into the market actually addresses the affordability problem. WTF!
We let real estate investors and contractors and planners run CMHC so they can drive more business for themselves. Really a government program to make housing more affordable and accessible insures INVESTMENT properties. WTF!!!
Total insanity. Heads gotta role at some point here. What’s involved in starting a revolution?????
Yes I’m tired of moving, but my biggest concern is what we are doing to Vancouver for the long-term. Assuming it ever goes down (starting to have doubts at times these days) the correction will be HUGE, and will slaughter so many of today’s smug faces. They will get their financial assess handed to them, and likely never recover. With how many of them there seems to be, what is that going to do to the city I grew up in and love, but have a hard time enjoying living in these days.
Moving SUCKS!!!!”
- RentersRant at VCI 29 Feb 2012 at 9:30pm

‘RentersRant’s biggest concern at this moment is clearly not about “what we are doing to Vancouver for the long term”, nor should it be. He has more immediate personal concerns about the profound inconvenience of being forced to move. We sympathize, moving ‘sucks’ at the best of times; when it is a forced move it is that much more unpleasant.
We also sympathize with his longer-term concerns for the city, and how his financial prudence has been punished by monetary policy & the speculative mania while all around the imprudent have been temporarily rewarded.
The spec mania applies destabilizing forces to the rental stock in the city. Any landlord capable of back of the napkin math, and who also has a modicum of insight into where we are in the RE cycle, should be selling. This is not good, it’s just another deleterious effect of the bubble.
- vreaa

“Good little story about Kelowna. My buddy’s house has been on the market for a long time and out of the blue he got a bite.”

“Good little story about Kelowna. My buddy’s house has been on the market for a long time and out of the blue he got a bite. It sold for about 5% less than asking and when they were $4K apart he stood his ground and told his Realtor that if he wanted this to happen he and the the other Realtor would have to do something about their commission to make up the $4K because he wasn’t dropping anymore.
At first they said ok, then they said it couldn’t be done, then they said they needed an extra day and sure enough the two of them ate $2K each and the deal got done. Good for him for holding his ground as the realtors tried to wait him out and hoped he would cave.
Even better, he signed a 2 yr lease on a recently renovated 3 bedroom townhouse at the Lagoon’s on the lake for $2200 per month. He figures the place is worth $900K – $1 mil.”
- McLovin at VCI 24 Feb 2012 7:46pm

“I’m American and planning a move to Canada and believe me, I’ll rent. I’ve seen this movie before. How some people keep saying that “it’s different this time” boggles the mind.”

“I’m American and planning a move to Canada and believe me, I’ll rent. I’ve seen this movie before. Record debt levels, low or zero down payments, long amortizations, prices screaming past any kind of wage growth, and absurd moral hazard conditions with the lending industry (everyone in Canada seemingly thinks that all the loans given out to people who couldn’t afford them in the US were perfectly within the rules, but that wasn’t the case, the banks just turned a blind eye and faked it during a period of “irrational exuberance”), just every factor in Canada seems to be what you’d see right before a crash.

I live in Boston, a very well protected city during the recession due to our medical, scientific, and educational economic core, and in particular, I live in a very posh area where no one defaulted and there weren’t any financial problems during the depth of the crash/recession, nevertheless, my condo at the low point was about $100K off from the high point. (My place dropped by about 1/3 at the low. EVERYONE got slammed.) If I would have sold when I saw the warning signs here (about 2007) I could have rented the exact same unit a floor above me and still be more than $30K in the black if I would have rented this entire time. When a correction hits, it hits everyone across the board and overshoot. People who think that only TO and Van will be effected are wrong. I’m planning to move to Sudbury, ON, a relatively remote place with limited economic opportunity, limited amenities, relatively low income levels, cold weather, and infrastructure problems, nevertheless, the prices there have probably doubled or more over the last five years. Just like in the US, if you give people access to cheap money, they spend it, quickly. And as to foreign investment, we had more then you do and those areas are some of the hardest hit because those foreign investors pull their money at the speed of light when things tend to go south.

I love Canada, I wouldn’t be moving there if I didn’t, but Canada has let itself go down the same path as the US and it kills me. Why so many Canadians look over to this side of the border and constantly tell themselves that they’re better is beyond me given that you keep repeating our history over and over again, be it a housing bubble, or torture, or bills which strip away privacy, or “tough on crime” legislation which has no effect other than to bankrupt the taxpayer, just on and on. How some people keep saying that “it’s different this time” boggles the mind.”

- this comment by ‘farrelli77′ at Globe and Mail 23 Feb 2012. 115-net ‘thumbs up’ at last count.

Tom Davidoff’s ‘Fantastic, Pragmatic Lecture’ – “Vancouver RE price future is uncertain, with clear downside risk. Prices could, absolutely, fall 50%. But long run growth is easy to envision, and Vancouver will never be cheap.”

“Today [16 Feb 2012] the UBC Faculty Association hosted a lecture titled “Is Real Estate Part of Your Financial Plan?” as part of their Financial Planning Lecture Series. The speaker was Tom Davidoff, Assistant Professor at UBC Sauder School of Business. In the past Prof. Davidoff had been interviewed on CTV, and discussed on this blog.” [1. 'Tom Davidoff, Sauder School of Business, UBC - "There's not going to be any free lunch in Vancouver. There's no entitlement to own a nice home in the most beautiful place on earth. So I think people need to be prepared just to accept that reality.", VREAA, 1 Dec 2012; 2. 'Tom Davidoff, Sauder School of Business, UBC - Clarification', VREAA, 2 Dec 2012; 3. 'Tom Davidoff Knows About RE Cycles', VREAA, 4 Dec 2012 -ed.]

“Today’s lecture was fantastic. He did not adopt a dogmatic bull or bear stance, but instead was quite pragmatic.”

“His main points were:
1) It’s ok to rent
2) Discussion of legitimate rationalizations of owning
3) Vancouver price future is uncertain with clear downside risk
4) Vancouver is not going to be cheap anytime soon
5) Owning housing can be viewed as both risk and insurance.”

The slides from his talk are available here, and here:
http://www.facultyassociation.ubc.ca/docs/fpls2012_L4.pdf

“I jotted down some interesting remarks, some of which are taken from the slides:
– (concerning slide 4) “If you want something to be distressed about, try this. Vancouver vs Seattle: the rents are the same, but prices are 40-50% greater, even though the tax rules tell us it should be the other way around.”
– (concerning slide 13) “Prices here have risen way faster than rents. This is worrisome and reason to be pessimistic”
– “Vancouver is the nicest city in China” (slide 19)
– “Short run risk of bubble collapse in China” (slide 19)
– “There is a risk of a bubble. Prices could absolutely fall 50%.”
– “There are other nice cities on the coast, but you can’t buy citizenship there like you can in Canada”
– “20-50% of sales are mainland Chinese buyers” (did not state precisely where or what)
– “If you need a 20% downpayment on a $1m home, which in Vancouver is a starter home, and not a very nice one, then it will be very hard to achieve this [if you a UBC employee] with a PhD in English”

“I commend Prof. Davidoff for being the first Sauder faculty (that I have seen) to publicly give a useful and rational discussion of the Vancouver housing market. I apologize for any erroneous quotations.”

- the above account and commentary from ‘Anonymous UBC Professor’ forwarded to VREAA via e-mail 16 Feb 2012
—

Thanks, indirectly, for the talk, Tom Davidoff; and thanks for the reporting thereof, ‘Anonymous UBC Professor’.
For those of us who weren’t at the talk, the pdf slides give a fairly good idea of the material covered. It’d be great if video, or audio, or transcription, of the entire talk emerges.
Davidoff discusses Vancouver rent vs buy, and pricing, in a more complex and more subtle way than we have seen elsewhere. Ideas regarding interpersonal differences in desire for mobility and stability involve important (and very difficult) calculations.
He honestly states that there is a possibility of large magnitude price drops, and is open about his lack of certainty going forward. When Tom states: “Easy to see downside risks; Easy to envision long run growth”, we wonder about how he would weight the probabilities of various different outcomes.
What are his best guesstimates regarding chances of ongoing growth; chances of a crash?
When a careful student of RE markets says “I can’t say if we’re in a bubble or not”, and “Prices could absolutely fall 50%”, but also “It’s easy to envision long run growth”, how are prudent owners and prospective buyers to respond?
When we ourselves join the available dots that the current market lays out, we continue to see very prominent downside risk, with only a very small chance of an ongoing price growth scenario. But we, too, acknowledge lack of complete certainty.
Isn’t that always the way in markets?: One can never be certain, but, one way or another, you have to take a position. You assess and weigh the probability of various outcomes as best you can, and then make decisions about how to position yourself, keeping in mind the consequences of various outcomes, and the particular effects they could have on you. Thus, a couple in their 20′s with 5% down on a condo, and a retired couple worth $10M who own their own $3M westside home outright, may have very little quality of life to lose from a RE crash, and may happily go on owning. But a 58 year old with 3 dependents, inadequate retirement funds, and more than their entire net-worth in a $1.3M east-side house, may suffer devastating consequences from the very same crash. We’d expect the 58 year old to be worried about even a low probability of crash outcome, because the consequences would be so dire, and for them to take up a more defensive stance towards their RE exposure. At what ‘best estimate level of crash-probability’ should the 58 year old sell? 30%? 15%? 5%?
Davidoff is reluctant to jump on what he appears to see as some kind of ‘bubble-caller bandwagon’. Perhaps his perspective is at least partly the result of his US post-bubble experience, where, post-implosion, everybody came out of the woodwork with “we-knew-all-along” fudging. Here in Vancouver itself, ‘bubble callers’, amazingly, remain in the small contrarian minority. Tom says “Many are willing to declare a bubble”; but we can think of few local examples. At least he is now on record as saying we’re possibly in a bubble. We agree, of course.
Overall, a stimulating series of slides, and as our invaluable reporter-on-the-ground says, the talk appears to have been both “fantastic” and “pragmatic”. Tom Davidoff’s analysis is a welcome addition to the local discussion. We continue to extend an open invitation to him to post a piece discussing Vancouver RE on these pages. We’d just as eagerly like to see a comprehensive essay by him in the local press.
- vreaa

“I’m ecstatic. My boomer parents called today to say they’ve finally sold our long-time house in cow town. Assessed $490k, listed last fall at $560k, no bite; re-listed at $490k last week, sold at $480k.”

“I’m ecstatic. My boomer parents called today to say they’ve finally sold our long-time house in cow town. Assessed was approx 490k, listed last fall at 560k, no bite after 3 months so took off market; re-listed at $490k last week, sold at $480k. According to the realtor (who only charged $3.5k in fees), these days most sales in the city (even near university / good high schools) are sold below-assessed value.
They’ve heeded my advice and already signed a 1 year lease in a newly renovated 1200 s.f. 3BR upper floor of duplex in a convenient area in GVA at $1275/m (after a $125/m reduction due to them being desirable tenants). It’s complete with new stainless steel appliances, granite counter top, and brand new carpet/cabinets. The owner is an elderly gentleman who just moved into a nursing home, so his son took over, renovated, and rented the half of duplex out, aiming for long-term tenants.
The duplex itself was assessed at $1.3M, so ~$650k for my parent’s side. I’m happy to have dissuaded them from buying in GVA (took me 2 years of nagging). My next goals are to keep them happily renting in next couple years, and to get them to sell their investment condo property in downtown cowville (currently rented out via an executive rentals company). That’ll take some more nagging.”
- VMD at vancouvercondo.info 14 Feb 2012 3:30am

“My wife and I could never buy into a life of servitude to a bank. We just aren’t built to borrow money and don’t consider life as a one track job in order to buy a building.”

“For our family it’s been about enjoying life. My wife and I could never buy into a life of servitude to a bank. It’s not in our DNA. We just aren’t built to borrow money and don’t consider life as a one track job in order to buy a building. We travel and explore BC and paid the university education for two kids. When we first moved to the LM from the Okanagan, we stopped at Haro and Jervis for several years (when a one bedroom was $400/m) and watched the tone of the city change from a cultural oasis to a financial oasis. I almost bought a suite for $90k, but the spirit changed. We wanted out. Now we live on a five acre farm near Golden Ears for $900 a month. We do lots of care taking and the owner keeps the rent low. Fresh eggs, beautiful scenery, and slow paced neighbors who are more interested in gardening than real estate. We’ve saved enough to buy a house for cash near Merritt and have our RRSP’s topped up.
I can appreciate that some folk want to acquire, however that need is at the jeopardy of a full rounded community with contributions from all walks of life. There’s some wonderful people in Vancouver, friendly, but there is a shift in attitude. It’s more about ‘stuff’ now. I don’t know, it might become a haven for the world’s rich, but at what expense to the people who were raised here? It’s like the pipeline up north—we pay carbon tax while the government and corporations pump our fossil fuels to Asia. There’s an underlying hypocrisy in many aspects of Vancouver and British Columbia’s growth. I don’t think the government made good decisions about sustainable living for the citizens of BC. I do believe their priority has been a tax base and many other aspects of culture and affordable living have been secondary. I know some real estate agents and I hold them personally responsible for jacking up prices at every turn. They were born to sell anything for a profit, and I am afraid they are now influencing public policy.
Can Vancouver survive an era of personal gain and self gratification? The same attitude didn’t prepare another glamor town very well, Las Vegas was hit very hard and it still hasn’t recovered from 2008. Two more years and our family is out. We are taking our design and manufacturing business as well. Freight on board out of Merritt is cheaper than expanding into a commercial site here.
Will be back to visit.”
- debtless in poco at VREAA 7 Feb 2012 9:25am

Talk of life without debt, fresh eggs, beautiful scenery, slow pace, neighbours, community.
Freaks!
- vreaa

The Costs Of Ownership – “Here are the economics of my renting since arriving and how this would have compared to buying.” – Renter Ahead $200K Over 5 Years

ZRH2YVR is a regular poster who recently revealed that they will be leaving Vancouver for a job to Switzerland. Their story was headlined 28 Jan 2012.

On that thread, ZRH2YVR added this useful analysis [VREAA 29 Jan 2012]:
“Here are the economics of my renting since arriving and how this would have compared to buying. You know real estate always go up so this renting thing must have been a real bust.
Property info – 1400 sq ft unobstructed 270% view of English Bay south down granville street and up and around to the mountains east approx to My. Seymour. New building 2007.
Rent paid from move in to June 2012: $196,000
This is a true consumption cost and was well within our means.
Value of property in 2007 on move-in – approx 1.4M.
Value today – estimated – 1.4-1.5M . Let’s say 1.5M just to be conservative.
Cost of ownership – Assume 100% leverage and ignore investment opportunity cost.
Interest rate – Let’s sat 5% even though in 2007, it may have been more.
Strata and property taxes amount to approx $1050-1100 per month.
So – Cost of ownership over this period is $395,000. But wait – the property went up in value right? !!! Well
Purchase cost would have been approx $1,430,000 with all up front costs.
Selling at 1.5M and subtracting costs would net say- $1,450,000 – so there is a gain of $20,000. Fantastic . . . Offset this against the cost of ownership of $395,000 – that gives you net $375,000 (ignore taxes). Compare this to cost of renting of $196,000 – we are up approx $200,000 – Believe me we notice this!!!
So – – For all you property virgins out there – the numbers above may be outside your normal range but divide this by 3 for a $500K property and you will be in about the same place – – up by $60,000 over 5 years. I would never buy in the current market.
Now the funny thing is that in order for us to have broken even, the purchase price would have been close to $600K initially -and that is over 50% fall from where we are. Good luck to all of you. A house is a place to live first – invest second and anyone who is investing right now is completely out of their mind. You would have much more fun going to Vegas for a month – and would probably be better off.”
—

Notice how often different methods of calculating the fundamental values of different properties come up with a “over 50%-off” conclusion.
Add bad sentiment on the downside and you can see one source of our 50%-66%-off estimate.
- vreaa

Maple Ridge – Renter Comes Out Ahead Of Buyer/Seller Over 5 Years

“We are all renters. That’s what I said to the nice bank lady when she gawked at my account balance. I explained, five years ago my buddy teamed with an investor to make the down payment and bought a house in Maple Ridge @ $335,000. The payment was $2000/m and he had a mortgage helper for $500/m. Since, he has reno’d the deck for $10000 and payed five years of tax totaling $10000. He also bought a water heater and paint for $1000. At the time, he bugged me to buy, but I rented and banked the difference between our two payments. I paid $700/m. and banked $800/m
Five years later, he wants out and intends to rent again. He can get $400,000 for the property. Principal owed is 310,000. The gross profit is $90,000
Deduct, 3% agent fee going in and out.
Deduct the interest portion of mortgage payments he covered
Deduct operating expense and property tax
Deduct 50% of the mortgage helper as taxable income
Pay back the downie investor principal plus 5%.
Gross profit on the house experiment $90,000
less expenses
balance =
$29,000 for five years rent isn’t too shabby, I told him, however expenses ate up any additional savings. And if he does not buy another place in a year, deduct tax on the capital gains for this year. An accountant might dispute my calculations but I think it’s pretty close. I did not include credit card interest, though my friend has been cash poor throughout the experiment.
In the same five year time period, I banked $48,000 rather than pay mortgage interest, with no fear of capital gains tax and no operating expenses, which I also banked. I may not be a millionaire, but I am happy with my lifestyle and enjoy west coast amenities without worry.
I wanted to share this experience, because I have been reading the VREAA blog and comments rent-free for some time and felt the need to pony up. Thanks.”
- sage at VREAA 24 Jan 2012 5:01pm

“I’m running out of patience with the bubble in the city. If it does not pop soon I’ll move on to another city or country.”

“I’m running out of patience with the bubble in the city. If it does not pop soon I’ll move on to another city or country. So plans do revolve around the housing market for most – either counting on real estate for retirement, or deciding to stay/leave. And that dependence grows as one gets older, has kids and thinks about school districts.”
- 604x at vancouvercondo.info 15 Jan 2012 at 6:22pm

Succinct.
Can’t the bubbleheads see how bad this is for our town?
- vreaa

“The nice lady at the bank told me that I really should be looking at a house as an investment since house prices always go up. I replied, well until they go down. She looked at me as if were from another planet and said well, not in Vancouver.”

“Linda (a wealthy woman who rents) ran into her account manager. “He told me that the bank is forecasting stable prices and perhaps a small softening based on what’s happening in China. He then asked if we were getting ready to buy yet. I told him that we were happy renting especially since a home we desire in the neighbourhood we like would cost between $1.5 to $2 million. He then inquired if that was our budget. We could certainly ‘afford’ – whatever that means -  a home in that price range. I told him however, that it wasn’t in the cards because we weren’t interested in a fat mortgage. He looked absolutely offended as if I’d launched a personal attack. Then, the nice lady at the bank, who had overheard this conversation told me that I really should be looking at a house as an investment since house prices always go up. And I replied, well until they go down. She looked at me as if were from another planet and said well, not in Vancouver. At that point I realized that I was from another planet – the one inhabited by sane people.”
- anecdote relayed by Garth Turner at greaterfool.ca 12 Jan 2012

“Metro Vancouver’s inflated housing prices are hard on the health of everyone, immigrant and non-immigrant.”

“Men who immigrate to Vancouver are twice as likely to report poor health compared to males who choose Toronto.
Female immigrants are 1.5 times more inclined to struggle with their health in Vancouver compared to women who end up in Ontario’s largest city.
The figures are not much better for immigrant males who choose Vancouver instead of Montreal.
The StatsCan longitudinal study suggested the findings about Vancouver needed further research. Yet, after consulting with noted Vancouver immigration specialist Richard Kurland, we have come up with four possible reasons why Vancouver is unusually rough on immigrants’ physical and mental health.
The first reason is actually hinted at in the report, written by StatsCan official Edward Ng, as well as Kevin Pottie and Denise Spitzer, both of the University of Ottawa.
It relates to housing. The report inadvertently linked the two by cryptically reporting “declining health” among new immigrants “who were not satisfied with their housing, and who lived in Vancouver.”
Although the statisticians didn’t draw a direct connection, Kurland is among those who recognize that Metro Vancouver’s inflated housing prices are hard on the health of everyone, immigrant and non-immigrant.
“Housing is always a Vancouver problem,” he said.
It’s not hard to imagine how expensive housing can lead to cramped living, extended families being forced to tensely live together and long commutes to work.”
- from ‘Why is Vancouver so bad for immigrants’ health?’, by Douglas Todd, Vancouver Sun, 7 Jan 2011[hat-tip Loon]

The described relationship is an association, rather than a proven causative link.
Regardless, it is of note to see a mainstream local article even suggesting that “inflated housing prices” may be linked to “poor health”. The article suggests possible mechanisms of (1) cramped living (with physical and mental health risks) and (2) long commutes. Other factors possibly making the link causative would be the long term psychological stress of financial overcommitment to housing.
- vreaa

Couple With $1M To Invest – “Moved back to Canada this summer and are gobsmacked at the state of “unreal” estate in every corner of this country. Our friends cannot believe we are renting. We cannot believe they think we should part with our savings in this market.”

“Who has $1 million to invest?.. We do. Moved back to Canada this summer from many years overseas and are gobsmacked at the state of “unreal” estate in pretty much every corner of this country. Our friends cannot believe we are renting. We cannot believe they think we should part with our savings in this market. We’ll be sitting tight and so happy to rent our 3500sq foot house for a pittance and pay no property tax. Unfortunately it doesn’t have granite counter tops…I can barely survive.”
- McExpat at greaterfool.ca 2 Jan 2012 10:44pm

There are folks exactly like this in Vancouver, but few RE Bulls believe it. – vreaa

Renter Finds Coal In Stocking – “It still seems really unfair to me that the landlord made a verbal agreement and then changed her mind at the last second.”

“Just wanted to share an unfortunate renting anecdote involving a friend of mine, as a warning to others and to see if anyone out there knows the best way to deal with this.
My friend decided to move at the end of this month and found a place around the 20th December. Being right before Christmas the landlord and her agreed to do the paperwork around the 26th-27th. My friend called on those days but didn’t get an answer and finally got through on the 28th. The landlord then said that she had spoken with her daughter and decided that maybe it wasn’t the best idea for her to allow a cat in the house and told my friend that she can no longer rent the place. (The cat had been discussed before the initial showing and wasn’t at that prior point seen as an issue). Three days before the end of the month doesn’t leave much time to find a new place, so she will likely now have to move stuff to storage, sleep on a friend’s couch, and find a new place come the New Year.
Technically, no papers were signed, but it still seems really unfair to me that the landlord made a verbal agreement and then changed her mind at the last second. So, just a warning to everyone out there that the deal isn’t really done until all the paperwork is in place. And if anyone knows the best way to proceed about getting the landlord to perhaps pay moving costs or something (RTO, small claims court?) that would be much appreciated.”
- davers, by e-mail to vreaa, 30 Jan 2011

Nothing was signed, so we’d strongly suspect the prospective tenant has no legal recourse; others may think or know different.
Sometimes renting can be very inconvenient.
We hope your friend finds a good place, davers, and that you both have a good 2012 nonetheless.
- vreaa

Visual Anecdote – Season’s Wishes

“A guy I know bought a place and was bragging that his mortgage is only a little bit higher than his rent would be. He gave me the whole lecture about how I am throwing money on rent. It took only a month until he started complaining about other expenses.”

“A guy I know bought a place and was bragging that his mortgage is only a little bit higher than his rent would be in a similar place. He gave me the whole lecture about how I am throwing money on rent etc. It took only a month until he started complaining about the high condo fees (which he did not account for), taxes (which he did not account for), higher insurance cost (which he did not account for) and a possible “assessment” (not even in his dreams when he was doing his “calculations”).
He has a variable rate mortgage and is paying just over 2% interest, that’s how his mortgage payments came relatively close to rental cost. Every 0.5% increase would add another $200+ to his cost.
Most home “owners” I talk to ignore any variables beyond mortgage when they are doing their calculations.
Another cost that is almost never accounted for – closing costs.”
- a splice of two posts by ‘bubbly’ at VREAA 20 Dec 2011 11:55am and 11:58am

Potato’s ‘Rent vs Buy Investment Spreadsheet’

Take a look at this very elegant Rent vs Own comparison spreadsheet/calculator.
Thanks to ‘Potato’ for telling us about the sheet and hinting to link it.
Potato also has a page of discussion regarding the calculator at their blog ‘Blessed by the Potato’. Wise-words excerpt-
“There are a lot of assumptions and estimates involved, a lot. The question is what should you do for your life? And importantly, what are the consequences of being wrong? Don’t use this tool with unrealistic estimates to try to justify a decision you want to make, but rather try to use it to help you come to the decision you should make — and to see what happens if you’re wrong.”

“For it to make sense for me to buy, prices would have to drop a lot more than 15%.”

“I live on the west side of Vancouver and rent a 700sqr ft apartment for $1050 a month. For it to make sense for me to buy a condo, with ever increasing monthly fees, property taxes, random special assessments, and a good possibility that it will leak (like so many others), prices would have to drop a lot more than 15%.”
- Tim at greaterfool.ca 18 Dec 2011 at 9:40 pm

“I know, I know; I’m unrealistic expecting more than a 10% correction”

“I’ve had to endure drivel from people I work with in Vancouver who:
1. bought a house 5 years ago in just outside Shaughnessy for $650k which is now worth… wait for it… $2 million
2. a house in East Van. which is ~90 years old and bought 4 years ago for ~270k is now worth ~$800k…
… I know, I know, I’m unrealistic expecting more than a 10 % correction”
- atomic at greaterfool.ca 17 Dec 2011 5:44am

“Affordable Housing Plan” – Apartment The Size Of Two Parking Spaces For $850 Rent Per Month

Life in an apartment the size of a double parking space will be on full display today as the public gets its first inside look at the mini-living going on at the restored Burns Block building on West Hastings Street in Vancouver.
Boasting 30 micro units described as the smallest rental units in Canada by developer Reliance Properties and partner ITC Construction Group, the Burns building is part of the city’s ongoing affordable housing strategy.
Coun. Kerry Jang told The Province Sunday that the low-rent suites – which range in size from 226 square feet to 291 square feet and rent for an average of $850 a month – were designed with modest income earners in mind.
“What we are trying to do as part of the affordable housing plan and housing in general is to provide a range of housing,” he said. “Because right now, if you rent a place, it’s over $1,000 and that’s beyond people who are making $10 or $12 an hour.”
The city contributed a $50,000 grant to fix the face of the 100-year-old heritage building, $144,000 in property-tax reductions and 62,000 square feet in heritage bonus density.
…
“It’s for folks who need to work in Vancouver but can’t afford to live here,” Jang added. “They can live in Vancouver, go to work and save money on cars and all that kind of stuff because they don’t have to drive in so it makes a big difference.”
…
Wendy Pederson, researcher and organizer for the Carnegie Community Action Project, decried the renovation of the old hotel as gentrification, adding people living on welfare or on old age pensions won’t be able to afford the rents even at $850.
“In my view, it’s a crime that the last housing before homelessness is being converted into micro-lofts,” she said.
“Those rooms used to rent at welfare and old age pension rates, and now the Downtown Eastside is being gentrified by the upscaling of these hotels. It’s upscale by our standards,” she said, adding the pre-reno rents were around $375.
“We don’t have enough social housing, and we’re losing our [single-room occupancy] hotels to upscaling like the Burns Block.
“The city is ignoring gentrification as a cause of homelessness,” said Pederson. “Many residents in a very full hotel were evicted [in 2006] by the owner who wanted to empty his building.” … “That owner made $1 million flipping it,” she said.
- from ‘Living small on West Hastings’, The Province, 19 Dec 2011 [hat-tip jesse]

As we’ve said previously: “Calls for ‘affordable’ new-build housing are almost all band-aid solutions. They largely result in relatively low quality product at proportionally roughly the same elevated costs as all other local properties.” [16 Dec 2011] - vreaa

“We are in our late 20s, take home 120k a year in safe gov’t jobs, and have absolutely no reason to get into this market right now.”

“The wife and I are in our late 20s, take home 120k a year in safe gov’t jobs, and have absolutely no reason to get into this market right now. The market here in Vancouver is silly, and renting 1/2 a house in North Delta that is walking distance from the wife’s office for $800 a month inclusive of all bills, wouldn’t even match the condo fees/property taxes of a 1000 sq/f box down the road.
Over the last year since coming back to Canada from an extended expat stint in Asia, I have def. noticed condos dropping in price, particularly in New West, Coquitlam, and parts of Burnaby.
Interestingly, a contact of mine who owns one of the larger realty companies in West Van, recently divested his ownership, sold his West Van house/sports car, packed the family up, and left for SoCal.
The smart money is leaving. My money is going into a TFSA/RRSP/growing a 3rd income from a small biz.”
- Zeus at greaterfool.ca 9 Dec 2011 9:51pm

“I know a couple in Lausanne, Switzerland, whose combined income is certainly over $500k. They rent. Many Swiss cities are renter cities.”

“I know a couple in Lausanne, Switzerland, whose combined income is certainly over $500k. They rent. Many Swiss cities are renter cities.” – Jeff Murdock at VREAA 9 Dec 2011 8:19am
—–

“The Swiss have a very well balanced real estate system. They live in a country with limited land and thus, the ownership and use of land is somewhat regulated and it is an asset to be consumed and not “invested in” or traded. This creates a very very stable market. You’ll see that the value of Swiss real estate has barely gone up in the past 20 years which is not so bad in a country where there has been almost no inflation. However, here are some items that keep their real estate in check.
1.) 80% of people rent. It is an asset to be consumed and it’s value is derived from the rent.
2.) Rent is a factor of property value/interest rates and is controlled and regulated.
3.) 100% of the maintenance risk lies with the tenants. Costs are allocated throughout the year in addition to the base regulated rent. In the event of a major item – it is split up between the tenants.
4.) If you actually own, you can deduct your interest – however- even if you have no mortgage (and thus no deduction) you also have an income inclusion which represents hypothetical rental income to yourself. You have to impute rent at say 4% of the property value each year. This is added to your income and you pay income tax on it.
5.) Foreign ownership restrictions are everywhere. And Foreigners have restrictions on the real estate that they dispose and they only allowed to sell for a gain in restricted circumstances.
–
A few other Swiss things to note. The pensions are very very rich and well funded. Up to 30% of your income each year goes into the pension system. Thus – pension funds are massive and retired people are very very wealthy. Where does the pension money go? To own the real estate buildings that people rent – since this is guaranteed and almost riskless cash flow (cash flow is risk reduced because rents are hardwired to property value and the maintenance and repair costs flow to tenants).
–
Another item is that since all the properties are owned by pension funds and insurance companies, you will never be asked to move – – in fact – most Swiss never move. It is too expensive (when you leave – you must return the property in the original condition you received it – no such thing as normal wear and tear. Plus – your movers are not cheap either – over 100/hour plus equipment rental costs).
–
All this means that Real Estate fulfills its function of providing housing stock as a consumable. Cities are priced in a rational way and so is real estate. Owning v. renting is not really much different in terms of risk. Vancouver could learn a lot from this. I am a strong advocate of implementing some type of limited foreign ownership restriction. Where you are dealing with a limited resource – you need to have the resource used for the benefit of the operation of the city – and not some type of traded commodity.”
- ZRH2YVR at VREAA 10 Dec 2011 8:11pm
—–

“I thought it was funny that they make $500,000 a year and still have to rent – mega lol”
- tmda commenting at RETalks 10 Dec 2011 7:53am on Jeff Murdock’s comment above
—–

Thanks to ZRH2YVR for the description of the very sensible Swiss system.
In Vancouver we do things very differently, of course. Ownership culture is entrenched. The speculative mania has caused each and every property to be viewed at least partly as a financial instrument.
- vreaa

Very Full House – Recent Bankruptcy; Borrowed Down-Payments; HELOC Spent On More RE; Cash Flow Negative Rental; 2nd Mortgage On Friends’ Property; “Throwing Away Money” On Rent; “Would Like A Place To Call Home”.

“We sold our big, two story, 4 bed Kelowna home. We made a profit of only $30K after selling for $100,000 lower than its highest appraisal value just before the 2008 drop. Unfortunately we [had] refinanced and spent the equity on, you guessed it RE!!!
We moved closer to Vancouver not by choice, but for job transfer. We are renting a house for $1900/mth. My husband hates it and feels we are throwing money away!! If we were getting this place cheap, then perhaps it would be ok and we could sock away the savings!!!
We know there will be a market correction, but we are still looking to buy something in the $500,000 range-rancher or something that will be marketable in future! We only have 10% down, but payments will be less than $1900/mth. We have to borrow the 10% down from family (good rate/pymt plan) since we declared bankruptcy last year. Long story but got caught in the real estate speculation hype and lost everything! Well not everything, we have a condo in Kelowna we can’t sell, but at least it is rented!! Mtg is $312K, prop value $300K. Cash flow is negative marginally. We also lent money from our home equity during the boom, when we refinanced. They have defaulted and have not paid us back. We hold a 2nd mtg on their property in St Catharine’s which is not worth much now!!!
Does it make sense to buy? We hope to be here 5 yrs. We are in Langley where we feel any correction would be much lower than in the city. We would be happy to break even and at least enjoy our own place for a bit. We have kids that would like a place to call home!!”
- Sarah’s story, as told by e-mail to Garth Turner and featured at greaterfool.ca 11 Dec 2011

Stop them before they borrow again!
Shouldn’t these guys by now have signed a “keep me out of the casino” voluntary exclusion request?
Just to read the story is difficult and exhausting; the living of it must be mind-blowingly hectic.
Remember when people would buy or rent, and then get on with their lives?
Speculative manias offer people fertile terrain in which to screw themselves up.
- vreaa

Renting In Vancouver – “…Unfold a tale to harrow up thy soul…”

This from Vesta at VREAA, 9 Dec 2011 10:01pm-

“Two anecdotes from the last few days. (I know some of you don’t believe in anecdotal evidence. Being a writer, I believe in it more than I believe in statistics.) Warning: perhaps inappropriate humour below. As I mentioned in earlier posts, I had looked for rental housing here for 3 months this summer. Finally thought I’d found someplace decent. Well, in the last 5 weeks there have been two sewer backups that flooded the basement. Turns out that there were sewer backups last year here too (thank you for that info, previous tenants). Funny thing is, I’d specifically asked the property manager if the house had ever had “water problems.” She’d said no. Nothing much had been done about these backups until this latest one, upon which I called City Hall (#311) and didn’t try to use my “inside voice.” That actually got the City out here, and after at first blaming the problem on indolent plumbers, they had to admit that there’s a rotted City pipe that’s actually part of the problem. But the City said it’s not a priority to fix it because it hasn’t “collapsed” yet. So I guess I can look forward to greeting Mr. Floatie in my basement sometime again in the near future. (Those of you who don’t know who Mr. Floatie is, he’s a revered figure in the BC capital.)”

“Renter Anecdote #2 just from this evening: Responsible young couple arrives in Vancouver. Hears that Balfour Properties manages good buildings. They interview at a building near Broadway and Macdonald (West Side). They think it’ll be great. Then they happen to run into a tenant who tells them that two doors down there was a meth-lab explosion where somebody died. They decided to keep looking and they’ve landed in a building that’s badly managed and has — wait for it — water problems.”

“What I don’t get sometimes about Vancouver, on the continuum of human civilization, is how architects and builders here have still not figured out how to defeat the (world-class) precipitation.”

“Okay, enough silliness. My next post: I’ve heard back from Stephen Harper about my concerns about the Vancouver mania! Stay tuned for some hilarious advice.”
—

Toronto Rents – “There has been a gradual insidious change as more people buy houses. There is a lack of qualified renters. Rents are down in real terms.”

“Rent prices are actually depressed in Toronto in real terms – There is a lack of qualified renters. I say this because I’ve been doing this for 15 years and there has been a gradual insidious change as more people buy houses. If 70% of people now own, and 30% do not for a large part the reason is that that 30% is not qualified for a mortgage.
When I look at the criteria used for credit score with my credit checking system, the credit score used for an approved renter is 700, yet CMHC will approve a mortgage for someone with a score of 620 which makes me chuckle a little. My rental screener tells me to decline those with that score. Of course I can’t, you have to pick from the tenants that apply not those you dream about getting!
Rents have gone down in actual terms in apartment buildings. Condo rentals are skewing the market.”
- Rachelle at VREAA 26 Nov 2011 5:49am

Kitsilano – “A West Side realtor I know expects the area to drop 20% in 2012.”

“Sold my house on Vancouver’s West Side in February this year. Cashed in on the Chinese New Year buying spree. Got 200k over asking, I still can’t quite believe it. Have been renting in the same area since then. Realtor friend said market has slowed completely in this area (Kitsilano). There are a few houses that sell, but the offers over asking are gone. Now most of the updates I get via email are “price reductions”. Another West Side realtor I know expects the area to drop 20% in 2012. Some of my friends are dismissing this as the seasonal “Christmas slowdown”. They think I’m nuts and real estate will come roaring back. I haven’t seen prices slide dramatically just yet but expect the reality check will really hit in February when the listings start popping up again.”
- West Side Survivor at greaterfool.ca 20 Nov 2011 7:58pm

Sandy Garossino – “I want to tell two stories from the campaign trail…”

“One of them was a childcare worker in her forties, making less than $11 an hour, caring for children of 3 families in her home on the East Side. Rents are going up but her income is not, and she is being forced out. Despite having a job, she has no security and is hurtling toward disaster.
Another day I was meeting seniors in the west end. A group gathered and were telling me that they spend on average 60-70% of their monthly income on rent. Most had saved for decades for a comfortable retirement, and were now eating into those funds every month just to survive. All of them live with ice in their bones for fear that they will be evicted from apartments they have lived in for decades, and most believe that no landlords will take them because their monthly incomes are so low.
One woman told me that she will be through her savings in three years, and then she doesn’t know where she’ll go or what will happen to her. She worked hard and saved for 47 years, and blinked back tears as she choked on the word ‘homeless’.”
- Sandy Garossino, Independent Candidate in the recent Vancouver civic elections, at her website votesandy.ca 22 Nov 2011

“I think we’ve been in bubble territory since at least 2004. I’ve been waiting and saving to see how it would turn out. In the intervening years I realized that I really can no longer stand Vancouver. I’m looking for my out.”

“I think we’ve been in bubble territory since at least 2004. I’ve been waiting (and saving) to see how it would turn out. In the intervening years I realized that I really can no longer stand Vancouver. I’m looking for my out.
When will the bubble burst?
Will it take a crash in commodity prices when China’s real estate market is in a tailspin? Or will loss of consumer confidence in China cause the fleeing of the HAM? Or will an expansion of credit suffer the consequent (inevitable) contraction as described by Von Mises and Schumpeter?
Perhaps the trigger will simply be that many people realize this isn’t such a nice place to live after all.
My feeling is that in Canada we’re always about 10 years behind the rest of the world.”
- Pococurante at VREAA 19 Nov 2011 9:19pm

“Even I can’t ‘afford’ a house. What am I supposed to do? Go buy a shack for $1.2M that I know is probably 4x overvalued, only to be the last sucker in before the big crash?”

“I sold my business a few years ago and retired with a nest egg of a couple million dollars. But even I can’t “afford” a house. What am I supposed to do?… Go buy a shack for $1.2M that I know is probably 4x overvalued, only to be the last sucker in before the big crash? I’m not going to take that chance so I’m forced to rent a little modest place while I wait for the madness to end. And, by the way, if you think $2M = rich in Vancouver, you are sadly mistaken. With today’s artificially low interest rates (that are keeping the real estate bubble alive), I can barely generate enough of an income to support my wife and kids.”
- anonymous commenting in ‘The Province’ (13 Nov 2011 11:14pm)

Seller Epiphany – “I sold and have $2M in the bank. My original plan was to wait until prices settled before buying a knockdown and building again. But a feeling has come over me I thought I could never have: I am beginning to hate Vancouver.”

Alex sold his house two months ago for $2.5 million. The buyers were Chinese, from Mainland China. “What else?” he asks. After all, this was West Vancouver. “They wanted our furniture too. We are now renting a furnished house. I have $2,000,000 cash in my account.”
“My original plan was to wait until prices settled before buying a knockdown and building again. But for the last two weeks a feeling has come over me I thought I could never have. Something snapped. I am beginning to hate Vancouver. I use to defend Vancouver to death against the East. Yes, I made lot of money here. But Vancouver is beginning to disgust me. The arrogant, snooty belief that nothing can go wrong here. The multiple offers for homes. The fact there is no industry or decent paying jobs here except if you are a Real Estate agent who drives around in a Porsche and advertises on billboards like a fashion model or actor.”
“Meanwhile we continue to build higher and higher on the North Shore mountains destroying the environment. The Governments have prostituted themselves to the highest bidder, selling citizenship for money and changing the nature of our neighbourhoods. This is not a healthy change. Marine Drive has become gridlocked. Disgusting monster homes with huge retaining walls being built. Everything has become too expensive here and beyond logic.”
- Alex in West Vancouver as relayed by Garth Turner at greaterfool.ca 9 Nov 2011

The interesting thing is that Alex has probably had these thoughts brewing for years. They have now crystalized with the sale of his house. The emotional attachment to the hopeful bullish position has departed, so the thoughts rise up, and become conscious and articulated.
There exists a super-saturated solution of these thoughts in the minds of Vancouver owners. They know that housing is very, very overvalued; they know that Vancouver is a nice city, but limited in all sorts of ways.
What will it take for everybody to suddenly realize the truths they already know? What will the seed be around which the realization rapidly forms?
What will do it is falling prices.
Unlike Alex, very few will be able to sell before they admit these thoughts.
The moment prices pull back substantially, RE will look different.
Owners will realize what they already know: that their $1.1M SFH or $400K condo are very modest structures, very overvalued, with lots of downside risk.
This realization will bring sellers to market as they attempt to realize their fantasized paper gains.
Prices will drop further; price drops will beget price drops.
The irrational strength on the way up will become irrational weakness on the way down.
This is how markets work, how speculative manias unwind.
- vreaa

News1130 Radio Poll – Is it smarter to rent or buy in Metro Vancouver?

- News1130 Poll, 9 Nov 2011
[hat-tip 'TPKFAA']