“A ’single family dwelling’ in Vancouver will more than likely have at least 2 households, I’ve personally seen 4 per house.”

This from bgard at greaterfool.ca on 22 Nov 2009 at 2:08 pm -

“I own a very similar house [to recently featured 265 East 24th Ave], probably in the same neighbourhood. In fact when I first saw the picture I thought it was my house. Even have a similar colour scheme…though mine is much nicer. Nicest house on crack alley as my wife likes to say. But on to the meat. My taxes (on an assessed value of 700K) are 5,000/year. Hydro and Gas are 3,000/year, for the 3 households that live here, same as in the example. Plus 1,000 for insurance. A ’single family dwelling’ in Vancouver will more than likely have at least 2 households, I’ve personally seen 4 per house. So you have to factor that in to the overall cost of RE. And taxes never go down. I’ve owned for 12 years and seen my assessments drop twice, last March (when assessments were done at mid dip) and from about ’98 to ’00. I have always paid more each year.”

Herb adds at 5:56 pm that in Ottawa, a 475K house has annual taxes of $6,140 and utilities of $5,200.

“I read a realistic and balanced RE article in the Vancouver Sun” – vreaa

The Vancouver Sun has unexpectedly published a sober and cautious article about Real Estate. This contrasts with years of articles that have most often read like RE promo brochures. The article is from the 20 Nov 2009, Vancouver Sun Business Section, with no apparent byline. Excerpts below, full article is reproduced as first comment in the comment section -

“In B.C., which has the highest prices and biggest mortgages, buyers seem more confident than other Canadians that prices will continue to rise. Even if they are right it would be prudent to remain cautious.”

“Low interest rates have been a godsend for mortgage borrowers, and a curse for savers…. But interest rates can change in the blink of an eye.”

“Financial advisers warn that real estate valuations can go down, as well as up, and people should diversify their investment portfolios, especially in retirement when a house should represent no more than 25 per cent to 33 per cent of total wealth.”

“Would-be buyers should enter the market with eyes wide open and view their purchase first as a place to live, and only second as a store of wealth.”

VREAA editorial comment -

1. What percentage of Vancouver owners are on target to have their house represent no more than 33% of their total net wealth by retirement?  Answer: Very few. Currently, for many owners, their home value represents greater than 100% of their net worth in that the outstanding mortgage is larger than their other savings and investments. And rising RE prices have further decreased the sense of need to build savings outside of RE equity.

2. What percentage of Vancouver owners currently view their homes ‘first as a place to live, and only second as a store of wealth’?  Answer: Very, very few.

‘Real Life’ – “This week I heard this…..”

This intense concentration of anecdotes breaks all records for efficiency of story telling on VREAA. Please send your own observations. Here’s Real Life at vancouvercondo.info 21 Nov 10:43 am -

“This week I heard this:

1. Hotel in Whistler – “last year was bad, this year is worse” (Global TV)
2. Fitness Centre in Fraser Valley – closing after 12 years (friend works there)
3. Condo back on market for -20% than paid 18 months ago (FTB friend)
4. Hours cut by 50% (friend that is an electrician)
5. Renegotiated rent (friend had landlord reduce rent from $1250 to $1050 in Chilliwack – for 1 year old 4 bedroom house.)”

“He bought in 2007 and was pretty much stretched to the limit to make the payments. He had an unexpected expense in 2008 and couldn’t afford it.”

This from davers at VREAA 17 Nov 2009 9:00 pm -

“I heard today from a co-worker that he just sold his Burnaby condo and is thrilled to have come out ahead. He bought in 2007 and was pretty much stretched to the limit to make the payments. He had an unexpected expense in 2008 (I didn’t ask what) and couldn’t afford it. By then the market was dropping and he didn’t want to sell at a loss, so he threw a renter in there and moved back in with his parents. He was lucky enough to have the market then rise and he made a small profit after all fees, and is now renting happily having learned a valuable lesson.”

The Globe and Mail – “In Vancouver, House Prices On A Tear”

In parts of Vancouver, such as the Vancouver Eastside, the market has reached fever pitch.  This article in the Globe and Mail by Kerry Gold, 19 Nov 2009 6:03 pm, has so many important anecdotal points regarding sentiment and market activity that vreaa has archived large swatches in this post, and highlighted two stories from it in the posts above.

“In the last three months, a heritage house at 274 E. 20th Ave. was listed for $959,000 and sold for $320,000 above asking, after eight days on the market. A heritage fixer-upper at 265 E. 24th was listed for $749,000 and sold for $1,033,000 within a mere 13 days. A month later, another house nearby at 214 E. 24th, was listed for $749,000 and sold for $950,000 within six days. A typical Vancouver Special at 4554 Walden St. was listed for $730,000 and sold eight days later for $958,000. All those houses were in the trendy Main Street area.”

“It’s very topical,” says realtor Rod MacKay. “Other places [in the country] are strong, but nobody’s seen anything like this. What’s really surprising is nobody anticipated the six-month dry spell being as slow as it was, and prices coming up as much. No one anticipated it bouncing back so far and so quickly.”

“At the beginning of this spring’s buying frenzy, buyers were offering $100,000 above asking in some cases. But by September and October, there were buyers – no doubt tired of being repeatedly out-bid – who are making offers so far above the asking price they couldn’t lose. In the case of the house at 265 E. 24th, it went for $284,000 above asking. “That takes a lot of stones to do that,” says the selling agent Darryl Sjerven. “There were 18 offers on that house. So you go in there, write an offer, and there are 17 other offers and you don’t know what any of them are. They could all be just $10,000 over asking. To go and write $284,000 over takes a lot of guts.”

To describe the bidding mentality these last few months, Mr. Sjerven uses the analogy of a “hang loose” hand gesture – with the three middle fingers curled under and pinkie and thumb sticking out.“Say you get five offers on a house, and suppose the house is listed at $750,000. The guy with the pinkie does not get it, he doesn’t know what’s going on,” says Mr. Sjerven. “Even though there are four other offers, he’ll offer you $700,000 subject to sale of his home and if he gets financing and everything. Then you get the typical pack in the middle, they’ll go around $785,000, or something like that. There’ll be a cluster of those people. Then there’s the thumb. It sticks right over the side and says, ‘this is my house. I want this house.’ He’s far enough ahead that it doesn’t get into further bidding or anything like that. And he buys that house.”

A few months ago, it seemed like the only houses being sold in bidding wars were the “hot properties,” the ones with three bedrooms up, new granite counter tops, and a gleaming in-law suite downstairs. More recently, the bidding wars have been over houses that aren’t so hot, such as that Vancouver Special that went for above asking.“The house wasn’t renovated or anything,” says selling agent Kenny Wong. “It was 37 years old. It had the original “shagadelic” carpets. It was on a 33-by-110 lot. It wasn’t even a standard lot. “I had a hard time selling a Vancouver Special in the winter – a lot of people made low-ball offers,” he adds. “Now they are going over asking.”

Although overall prices aren’t quite at pre-correction levels, for buyers it has felt like the spring of 2008 again.

As to where the market will be in early 2010, the current frenzy appears to be abating and realtors like Mr. Sjerven expect the lull to last over the winter and through to the end of the Olympics. Not many people like to list or buy homes around the holiday season, and few are going to want to sell around the time of the Games, when it could be hard to get around. That five-month lull will create “pent-up demand” that will trigger another frenzy, says Mr. Sjerven. “Once you clear the Olympics out of the way and we’re into April, it will be a race to those listings. Spring is going to rock.”

“They didn’t have to come up with a down payment.”

Money is free and you don’t even need a downpayment. The only thing good about this is that it is almost impossible to make monetary policy any looser without some kind of obscene give away program that’d likely stir objections. This from casual observer at greaterfool.ca on 21 Nov 2009 at 4:40 pm -

“If you go into one of the big five banks, and take their posted rate on a mortgage, they will GIVE you the 5% down payment. CMHC is happy because the 5% DP has been paid, the bank is happy because they get a higher rate on the mortgage, and the buyers are happy because THEY DIDN’T HAVE TO COME UP WITH A DOWN PAYMENT. And it’s all legal and above board. CMHC just charges a premium for a “NON-STANDARD Down Payment”. Now if that’s not a zero down mortgage, I don’t know what is. I know people that have done this within the last couple of months, but none of the media seems to want to bring attention to this.”

Audio anecdote: “Hey, would you like to kick yourself?”… “Today’s real estate market could be at rock bottom, and when markets hit bottom, the winners are buying.”

At this point in the real estate cycle, to be luring individuals who are “worrying about living paycheck to paycheck” into RE ‘investment’ could be seen to be imprudent.   Listeners to Vancouver Radio station ‘CKWX News 1130′ this week (16-20 Nov 2009) were exposed to this 60 second ad about once an hour. The meaty bits are italicized. Or click here to subject yourself to the AUDIO -

“Hey, would you like to kick yourself? That’s what you would be doing if you ignore this opportunity. Today’s real estate market could be at rock bottom, and when markets hit bottom, the winners are buying. Come to a free learn to be rich workshop and discover how to join the winners based on the teachings of Robert Kiyosaki, best selling author of ‘Rich Dad, Poor Dad’, the number #1 book on personal finance. Rich Dad’s learn-to-be-rich workshop is free and happening in the Vancouver area today through Friday. This totally free workshop will introduce you to tools and strategies that could create extra cash flow and free you from worrying about living paycheck to paycheck. Don’t kick yourself next year saying “Why didn’t I invest when I had the chance?” This is your chance. Register now online at richdad*******.com or call 800-399-****. Get a free gift for attending. Registration is free. Call now 800-399-****.”

Higher Down Payment, Higher Interest Rate? – “Don’t try to fight the government.”

Risk is being abnormally underpriced in the Canadian mortgage market. Despite the Bank of Canada’s call for prudence, there remains an apparent open invitation for buyers to overextend themselves. This from German Guy at robchipman.net 19 Nov 2009 at 12:44 pm

“I hear a lot of talk about how CHMC is the Canadian version of American sub-prime so, since I don’t have much to do in this never ending rainy place, I decided to go and apply for a mortgage to find out what is it all about.
I asked for a 5 /35 year fixed rate with minimum 5% down payment and 5/35 with 300k down as well as a VMR and wanted to know how much money I would qualify for. Here are the figures I gave the banker (the figures are imaginary and have no relation to my real revenue):
Gross annual income: 95k, estimated purchase price 800k
Expenses estimated by banker: Monthly heating costs $67; annual taxes $2500, loan/credit card monthly: $360

In the case of 5/35 with 40k down he qualified me for loan of $538,842, with $2,404 monthly payment and 4.20% interest rate. In the case of 5/35 with 300k down he qualified me for a loan of $798,842 with $2,534 monthly payment and 4.20% interest rates.

I asked to get a lower interest rate in the second case where I put a bigger down payment since the bank was not taking as much risk as with the first one.
Answer: We take more risk when you put a bigger down payment because your loan does not have to be insured by CMHC, so if anything your interest rate could be higher because the bank is taking more risk. We are not in the business of foreclosing homes and selling to get paid, we prefer when you have a CHMC insurance as our risk is much lower than when you have a pig [that's 'big' -ed.] down payment above 20% of purchase price.

I asked for a VMR then, he quoted me a 2.25% interest rate for 35 years and qualified for $665,000 loan with 5% down payment.
I asked could put a bigger down payment ?
Answer: No. We will not give you a VMR loan if it is not CHMC insured!

I pointed out the absurdity of the situation in his reasoning, with taxpayer taking all the risk and the banks making risk free profit. All he said was don’t try to fight the government.”

“I haven’t really been paying attention to fixed rates with variables so low.”

Are current buyers following the recent BOC guidance to be ‘prudent’? This admission from Vancouver Realtor MikeStewartRealtor at RE Talks 18 Nov 2009 10:21 pm, in response to a poster’s question about ‘best 5 year and variable rates’ currently available -

“The best variable I’ve seen is prime -0.1%. Haven’t really been paying attention to fixed rates with variables so low. I’d use a mortgage broker. Talk to a few to see who can get you exactly what you want.”

“They were beginning to get freaked out by the prospect of losing their jobs while trying to pay their mortgages.”

This from logic at vancouvercondo.info 16 Nov 2009 3:53 pm -

“I was sitting in the Starbucks on the corner of Denman and Davie this morning, doing a bit of work and listening to a group of 4 construction tradesmen at the table behind me talking about all the layoffs in the places they work, and stating that they were beginning to get “freaked out” by the prospect of losing their jobs while trying to pay their mortgages. They were most worried by the fact that it’s not just the new hires being let go, but also people with “seniority”. I felt sorry for them, as they genuinely sounded worried, and seemed like nice enough guys.”

 

“A guy just bought a house with a mortgage and was checking with his friends if the bank would lend him another $6K for CHMC insurance”

This from Anonymous at vancouvercondo.info 15 Nov 2009 10:13 pm -

“I was at the Daiso $2 shop to buy toilet brushes and brooms. And I overhead a conversation. A guy just bought a house with a mortgage and was checking with his friends if the bank would lend him another $6K for CHMC insurance.”

“I’m wondering who’s left… all of my bearish friends with the means to buy have bought.”

This exchange regarding personal knowledge of former bears buying, at mohican’s Housing Analysis blog 9 Nov 2009, starting 11:34 am -

M- :  “I’m wondering who’s left to buy– in my group of friends and acquaintances, my observations on who has bought are:
-2006-2008: non-bearish friends and acquaintances who could really (or in two cases couldn’t) afford it, bought.
-2009: bearish friends and acquaintances bought (all of them).
Yep, in my circle of friends and acquaintances, all of my bearish friends (with the means to buy) have bought. There are two exceptions: myself, and a couple who just returned from overseas. Aside from them, the only other renters work low-wage jobs, or are recent graduates.”

mohican: “I have observed the same thing within my circle as well. Including myself, most bearish friends have purchased already. They largely took advantage of the winter 2008 price dip and negotiated hard to get a decent deal. Many are still bearish – including me – but just wanted a little lifestyle certainty and were willing to pay for it.  I don’t know where the future buyers will come from – overseas? The ownership rate is at an all time high right now as per statscan.”

david: “When bears capitulate isn’t that the sign of a market peak?”

“Yes, the interest rates will rise, but my salary will also increase. If I’m laid off, or my mortgage skyrockets, I’ll work my ass off to keep it all together.”

Vancouver RE currently demonstrates historically record high price-to-rent ratios. Despite this, very, very low interest rates continue to make buying look attractive, especially if one only considers monthly payments. This illustrative example from Beth (2009 Nov 13, 20:27) in the comments section of the 12 Nov 2009 ‘Vancouver RE market bounces back’ article in the Georgia Straight, by Charlie Smith -

“My rent was $975 a month for a crappy, 35 year old one bedroom that didn’t have insuite laundry or anything, and where the landlord would knock twice then enter my suite without advance notice for non-emergencies, once even while I was on the toilet. Now, my mortgage is the same for a 12 year old one bedroom with laundry, fireplace, dishwasher. This includes maintenance fee. And I can have a pet. And no landlord can come in because he feels like it. Yes, the interest rates will rise, but my salary will also increase. If I’m laid off, or my mortgage skyrockets, I’ll work my ass off to keep it all together. I am confident in my ability to make it work. Downpayment? Some people work two jobs and weekends for years and years and years to save up for one; others inherit it when a loved one passes away; others borrow money interest-free from family, and others have it handed to them by well-to-do parents who would rather their kids have a condo than live in a dump run by a slumlord. Do you blame them? It’s not really anyone’s business where a downpayment comes from. It’s not a crime to have a downpayment.”