Previous failures of Canadian financial institutions were due to bad real estate lending and sharp falls in housing prices, and these can happen again, Vlasios Melessanakis, manager of policy development at the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, wrote in documents obtained by Bloomberg News under freedom-of-information law. …
“Canada is not immune,” Melessanakis wrote March 21 in internal notes responding to a posting on a mortgage-industry website. “Just because nothing happened in Canada in 2008 (a U.S.-centered crisis), does not mean that Canada is not vulnerable to a housing correction now.”
Melessanakis wrote his comments to colleagues in response to a posting on a mortgage-industry website, Canadian Mortgage Trends, that criticized proposed standards published by Canada’s top banking regulator on 19 Mar 2012.
…
Ottawa-based OSFI suggested requiring lenders to take “reasonable steps” to verify borrower incomes, establish standards for measuring borrowers’ ability to pay their debts, and limit the size of loans secured by the equity in people’s homes. The draft guidelines are based on mortgage-lending principles set by the Financial Stability Board, a Basel-based group that coordinates global financial rules.
“How many new lending ‘guidelines’ can the market bear before it breaks?” wrote Robert McLister, a mortgage planner who edits the website.
“The market may break because the fundamentals are not sound (i.e. overvaluation of homes), not because of OSFI guidance,” Melessanakis wrote in response.
…
There’s “no question” the proposed OSFI guidelines will curb demand and hurt housing prices, McLister said in an interview. “OSFI had good intentions here, but some of this policy is certainly misguided,” he said, when asked to react to Melessanakis’ comments.
McLister pointed to banks’ low arrears rates on mortgages as evidence more rules aren’t needed. Melessanakis wasn’t convinced.
“This can change fast,” he wrote in his notes. “Are the banks equipped to handle a 40 percent drop (what occurred in Toronto market in early 1990’s)? Need to stress test to find out.”
McLister called the idea of a 40 percent decline in housing prices across the country “farcical.” Such a decline is “not going to happen, period. But in some places like Vancouver, maybe Toronto, obviously you’re going to have greater risk there of price volatility,” he said by telephone.
…
OSFI’s guidelines suggest lenders limit home-equity lines of credit to 65 percent of the property’s value. The regulator also recommends that HELOCs be paid off over a specific amortization period, like conventional mortgages.
While McLister wrote that those rules “portend a big slowdown in HELOCs,” Melessanakis responded that the loans have “contributed significantly to growing overall household debt.”
“This is not sustainable,” he wrote. “If (or when) housing prices drop, households will be vulnerable,” echoing comments made by Flaherty and Carney.
Melessanakis also disputed McLister’s point that many of OSFI’s recommendations are already employed by “scores of lenders.” “Not all, and not on a consistent basis,” the OSFI official said. “There are some enhancements in lending practices that are needed.”
…
- from ‘Banks Not Immune to Housing-Related Failures: Corporate Canada’, Bloomberg, 15 May 2012
—
Forty percent off is a fair downside target, but we see it going lower.
The ‘farcical’ quote will be archived in the ‘Bull Hubris’ sidebar, for ease of future reference.
- vreaa
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Latest Anecdotes:
- Chat Thread
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- “My best guess: this property is now an ‘investment hold’ and will be built ‘when prices recover’. Good luck on that!”
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- The Rare Individual With A Negative Ownership Premium
- Advice Regarding Renting In Vancouver, Please – “Unfortunately, the Vancouver rental stock is absolutely atrocious. It just seems like every landlord is looking for someone to pay 100% of their mortgage on a crappy place through rental income.”
- “I just visited Manhattan for a week, and happened to snap some real estate ads on both the Upper West and Upper East sides of the island. Compare to Vancouver. It simply doesn’t compute.”
- Ben Rabidoux In Vancouver Next Week
- “The mortgage company told me they were calling in my 40-year, 0-down mortgage. I have paid nearly sixty thousand dollars towards it, but, nearly five years in, I have yet to touch the principal.”
- ‘Vancouver City Hall: Housing Report Card 2012′; Plus Revised Version
- “My folks find themselves at 65 still owing half the value of their home and recreation property to the bank. After almost 30 years of ownership in the BPOE and a number of boom markets, they have very little to show for it.”
- “Rent for $2,200 a month or buy and have a mortgage of $4,310 per month. Why would anyone buy?”
- “They were talking about two couples they knew who had recently bought a lot and planned to each build a house on it and live as neighbours.”
- Greater Vancouver Home Builders’ Association Annual First-Time Buyer Seminar Attendance Plummets
- Mom and Pop Get It Wrong In All Markets, Time And Again
- The average British Columbian homeowner is not going to pay off their mortgage by the time they retire.
- “He’s sold all his properties except his current one, which is now for sale. He explained that the market’s currently in crash mode, worst that he’s ever seen.”
- “One of my old high school buddies finally got her mother to sell the family home in Kitsilano – sold for over $1M, monies realized after debt paid off $185K.”
- “I know someone who just declared bankruptcy because her condo was assessed at $150k and she bought it presale north of $250k in 2005 or 2006.”
- Sturdy, With Views – “Calling Froogle Scott!… Is Dr. Scott ‘In The House’?” [Not In This One, Certainly]
- “She said the market was dead in Victoria and that it would remain so for a very long time. I asked how she knew. Her answer was fascinating and should scare the pants off the real estate crowd.”
- Kits Notes – “I’m pretty sure that this is the first 3+ bedroom property of any type that I’ve seen in the 5 years I’ve lived here that is priced below $700K.”
- “A beautiful Belfast home, in the equivalent of 1st Shaughnessy, bought at their RE peak in 2007 for £3.5 million, has now sold for £800K, almost 80%-off. The market didn’t suffer any significant economic shocks. Rates & unemployment didn’t skyrocket. They didn’t build more land. Sentiment just changed and the prices fell and fell.”
- “Two family members of hers are trapped, underwater, in condos on the East Side.”
- “Interprovincial migration is not saying good things about BC’s economy.”
- Vancouver RE: Not As Expensive Provided You Don’t Think – “It’s clear that our perception of affordability has been coloured by living on a continent where housing is unusually inexpensive.”
- More Undisclosed RE Industry Insiders Publicized As Clients – “In 1995, Allan and Karin Hoegg were mortgage-free. But no more. Today their Vancouver home is a valuable source of income as they plan for full retirement.”
- Rumor that some OV units will be reduced by 20%.
- Downside Weights On The Vancouver RE Market – “One of the older guys (over 60) mention to the guy beside him that he and his wife were thinking about selling their family home, and renting, in order to get some of the money that was locked up in the house.”
- “My buddy was looking to upgrade to a house in the Coquitlam area. With 200k extra for a home, that’s half of lifetime saving between him and his wife.”
- “I was walking in the Fraser neighborhood yesterday, I noticed that the population, on average, seem to be composed of workers. I belong to the top 5 percent in terms of income. Nevertheless, I cannot afford any of the houses for sale in that neighbourhood.”
- “Vancouver is an urban resort whose value mostly resides in its real estate and not much else.”
- “Rogers Communications is expanding into RE; aiming to relaunch website; providing critical data that can help potential buyers assess the value of a property from the comfort of their home computer.”
- I’m only 50 and I can just about retire if I want to, all because of a single simple decision – “When prices rebounded to their former highs, then rocketed another 30% higher to what I considered to be totally unsustainable levels, I decided that only a fool would pass up a second opportunity to harvest such a massive non-taxable capital gain, and in 2011 I sold my place.”
- The Vacant Lot of Versailles, Richmond.
- “I don’t think that most people think things are going to crash, just that there is going to be a slight correction, but it was amazing to me how sentiment has changed, and the fact Vancouver RE is too high was just understood.”
- “The ‘investor’ who purchased our house put it up for sale two months later, in January 1981, but the bubble had burst.”
- For A City To Have That Kind Of Vacancy, It’s Like Cancer – “Downtown, the vacant unit rate is so high that it’s as though there were 35 towers at 20 storeys apiece – all empty.”
- “What’s the worst that can happen? You can’t pay your mortgage, so sell your house! No fear.”

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40% drop ??? Preposterous the masses screamed ! Never in La La Land ! The message was just delivered loud and clear, it’s all over suckas.
In Vancouver, we’ve already done a quarter of the way. A couple more years and we’ll be there, and three more years and we’ll pass the -50% bar. I don’t see how we’ll be able to avoid that fate…
It will be sooner then four years I can assure that, because this time, not like in 2008, there is no interest rate buffer to restore confidence. http://i48.tinypic.com/6ezzp5.png
Buckle up, it’s going to be a hard hard landing.
@CW, as I said below, my prediction is a -55% from peak to trough in Vancouver. I think Vreaa said between -50% and -66%.
I believe by the end of this year, we’ll already be at -15% to -20% and slowly but continuously go down from there. Lots of people will try to catch the bottom all the way down, they’ll get slaughtered as well. RE speculation is like a drug, it’s really hard to get out of the addiction.
I’m just saying, we’re heading into the abyss with no rates to save us.
40% off the average is devastation. That means some neighborhoods can see more. Scary
My very own estimate is -55% from peak to trough in Vancouver. Yes, it’s going to be bloody on an epic scale. People just don’t realize yet what’s coming. There is no economy to support the current RE valuation here, and once the market crash, the economy will be in an even worse shape.
Lots of people will move out of Province to find jobs, investors will avoid BC like the plague. All of a sudden, nobody will talk about lack of land but everybody will complain about the ghost condo towers… There writing is on the wall for those who just want to see!
Plus the impact on the banks as indicated in the headlined article, that alone could be catastrophic for the general economy. Lending freezes up, businesses lose access to credit, people lose jobs, property tax revenue drops off a cliff, government cutbacks, etc, etc. It really is not going to be pretty.
Nationwide, yes, 40% drop is definitely farcical. But it won’t be farcical for Vancouver and Toronto. To me, a basement suite for $500K was unthinkable and shocking the first time I learned of it. Let alone the $900K in the west side. Unlike Asian countries, Canada is such a vast land mass when compared to its population size.
Agreed. This article is talking the national average. Vancouver is a whole different ball game. I’m pretty bearish on Canada RE as a whole and I think -30% is about as low as we will go. Vancouver? Who knows. That one could hit -60%.
Dysfunctional on the way up, dysfunctional on the way down.
He said 40% across Canada. While I don’t think it is farcical, it is at least improbable.
So the average house price drops from 1 million to $500,000 (by most bear estimates). I wonder how many would view that as a reasonable price to pay for a SFH? Especially in a bad economy?
70-85% when all is said and done.
Well, in Detroit, you can buy a house for less than a car. So I suppose drops can go pretty deep. Does anyone know what average/median prices were at their height?
http://tribstar.com/real_estate_news/x1451003419/Homes-for-the-Price-of-a-Car
I’m not smart enough to figure out what’s going to happen to Vancouver.
-110%
That’s so droll.
In other news contradicting, “farcical”… our Quote ‘O TheDay!…
“It happened twice in the last month. One [deposit] was $75,000 and one was a $20,000 deposit, the guys just walked away from it,” said Mr. Arora, who runs Oneflatfee.ca in Surrey, B.C. “They are going to wait it out. So they lost $75,000 and $20,000, but if the market comes down $150,000 on a $1.5-million house, that’s not uncommon.”
[G&M] – Vancouver’s real estate swoon deepens
http://tinyurl.com/7krkdyu
Cue the “We told ya so’s!” – StageLeft
Okay, so agree: if we’re talking about 40%-off nation-wide, I’d (like RD above) say that’s unlikely, but definitely not ‘farcical’ to contemplate.
For Vancouver 40% is a highly probable size of price reduction, and we estimate highest probability is it’ll be larger (50%-66%, as noted above).
The more the risk is insured, the bigger the moral hazard. It is ironic but true.
Check out this article about Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/05/15/leaving-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-as-is-risks-another-housing-bubble
surprising finding people finding this surprising … more like … well, uhhhh !!! oop ack!
This is another fine example of the feds trying to control every aspect of our economy. They engineered it up and are attempting the same going down. We should know within a year how successful they were.
taking all bets.
We will not reach 40% off in Vancouver. Any takers can e-mail me at centrinoblue@hotmail.com
Please indicate (by way of your total wager) how confident you are of 40% discount. This is for total benchmark price including all property classes in the City of Vancouver (no suburbs).
If I hear from one of you squawkers
There won’t be a 40% discount, it will be a 40% crash as in crash and burn.
Some historical perspective here: http://www.renthomas.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Canadas_Housing_Bubble.pdf
I don’t know how authoritative it is, but it says that after the late 1980s Toronto bubble bursts, the “sale price for a standard condominium in Toronto dropped by, on average, 39%. All other housing classes were relatively uniform, losing approximately 27% of their value, with luxury condos losing slightly more, at -32%.”
Given numbers like that, and what happened in the US, postulating a 40% drop across the market in Canada doesn’t strike me as farcical. Worst-case, perhaps, but not impossible.
Peripherally-related: some people are so poor at math that they don’t realize that percentage increases and decreases cannot simply be added up. It takes a smaller percentage drop to wipe out a prior larger increase. Consider this: a 40% drop in prices corresponds to the undoing of a 67% price increase: (1 + 0.67) x (1 – 0.4) ~= 1.0