Monthly Archives: March 2012

Westside ‘Ridge Theatre’ & ‘Varsity Ridge Bowling Alley’ To Be Demolished For Condos

“A Vancouver cinema which has shown movies in the Kitsilano neighbourhood for decades looks set to be torn down after housing developers purchased the land it stands on.
The Ridge Theatre has screened movies at Arbutus Street and 16th Avenue since 1950, but the Cressey Development Group plan to level the landmark and the Varsity Bowling Alley next door.
The group intends to build a mixed use development on the property with ground floor retail and concrete condominiums above.
President of Festival Cinemas Leonard Schein has leased the Ridge Theatre for 34 years but believes the fate of the single screen theatre seems sealed.
“That will be the end of the Ridge when they do it. I’m not sure if they’ll do it in 2012 or 2013. It’s been a long time and I’m sad to see it ,” he said.”

- CBC News, 12 Mar 2012

Found on ‘flickr’:
Ridge Theatre – 1949
3131 Arbutus Street, Vancouver, BC.
When it opened its doors in April 1950, the Ridge Theatre was hailed as “A miracle of modern architecture and construction” boasting the latest in projection equipment and creature comforts. In the late 1970s the Ridge became a repertory or “second run” theatre, a role that continues to this day.

Let’s just cut to the chase and ‘condo’ everything from UBC to Boundary Road (Endowment Lands included); interspersed with oases of coffee shops and high end fashion stores, of course.
– vreaa


Postscript:
It seems the Ridge does have a history with real estate:

- image from ‘Macdonald Realty Asia Typhoons Charity Event’, Macdonald Realty Blog, 26 Jan 2012

‘Frontier Centre’ Opinion – “High home prices can only be solved from the supply side. Open portions of the Agricultural Land Reserve, but only to high density development.”

“Vancouver is in desperate need of new solutions to ease its worsening housing affordability crisis. The 8th annual Demographia housing affordability survey released by the Frontier Centre found that Vancouver has the second least affordable housing market next to Hong Kong. On average, and assuming zero interest, a house in Vancouver would cost the median family more than ten years income. Three years is the threshold after which a market is considered unaffordable.
Mayor Robertson recently announced the launch of a new task force to tackle the housing affordability crisis. The only way to tackle this problem is to focus on getting more housing units on to the market.
Much of the debate around housing affordability descends into discussions about manipulating housing prices by freezing out market mechanisms.”

“In order to balance the concerns of housing affordability and urban sprawl, the city of Vancouver should strike a compromise: open portions of the ALR, but only to high density development. This may not be the optimum solution for families that would prefer to purchase single dwelling homes, but a significant influx of new units would be a countervailing force against runaway home prices. This would also put downwards pressure on housing in the rest of Greater Vancouver. Though opening up broad swaths of the ALR may be the ideal, this seems like a reasonable compromise.
This type of solution would rile people on both sides of the political spectrum, but it would be a dramatic improvement over the status quo. High home prices can only be solved from the supply side. The choice between maintaining the ALR as constituted or opening up portions should be obvious. Infill development can only go so far towards solving Vancouver’s housing crisis.”

- from ‘Time for Real Solutions to Vancouver’s Housing Affordability Crisis’, by Steve Lafleur, New Geography, 9 Mar 2012. Lafleur is a Policy Analyst with the Frontier Centre for Public Policy.

Assuming that “high home prices can only be solved from the supply side” leads most looking for a solution to consider ways of building new supply, and Lefleur offers a version of such a plan. But we note that, like almost every other commentator wrestling with Vancouver housing affordability, he leaves out the most obvious and necessary next step – an implosion of the bubble.
When the mania ends and prices begin their long descent, supply will come from what we’ve referred to as ‘speculative holders’ – not just the obvious flippers and developers, but all Vancouver owners who have been holding property because prices are rising. Most don’t even see themselves as speculators, but they are just that. And, when prices start their relentless decline, their reason for holding will evaporate and they will come to market. There will be lots and lots of supply, without any need to actually create more product. Seems counter-intuitive, but, there it is.
Vancouver will still have sore need for a sensible housing policy thereafter, but the milieu in which it will have to be made will be very different from that which faces us today.
- vreaa

“The Carnegie Community Action Project has created a map that shows how property values have increased in the Downtown Eastside.”


“The Carnegie Community Action Project has created a map that shows how property values have increased in the Downtown Eastside. It also tracks the decline in low-cost housing options in the neighbourhood.”

- graphic from ‘Property values shoot up in Downtown Eastside’, Charlie Smith, Georgia Straight 5 Mar 2012. [hat-tip Aldus Huxtable.]

“We live in Vancouver and frequent Seattle often. We look at real estate at times when we travel there. We see median prices nearly triple here in Vancouver over what they are in Seattle. It just doesn’t make any sense.”

“We live in Vancouver and frequent Seattle often. We look at real estate at times when we travel there. Although the median price may show $320,000 in Seattle you would be hard pressed to find anything for that price there unless it were a dump. Surely this figure is comprised of the many studio and one bedroom sales and is not a sole reflection of single family home prices only. To get a decent single family home anywhere in Seattle in a decent neighbourhood would easily cost upward of $500,000-$600,000.

Besides the numbers the graphs comparing Vancouver to Seattle are very concerning to us. We were lucky and sold our downtown Vancouver condo a year ago this March 15th. We took a $17,000 hit after fees. But we felt blessed to get out even though we lost a little cash on the deal. We look around now and it seems like nothing is selling downtown – nothing. We know the real estate downturn has arrived.

If we could find viable jobs in Seattle we would quickly move there. Compared to Vancouver the prices of real estate are much less there and so are the prices for most goods, services, and entertainment. Our quality of life would benefit in ways we cannot imagine here. Aside from the lack of a widespread rail system Seattle as a city is top notch and the people are great too. But getting around in a car is much easier in Seattle than in Vancouver. Tit for tat. I hear they are working on a comprehensive citywide rail system right now and also maybe even getting high speed rail connecting Seattle to Portland. But they are also building a trolly system too such as the one they have in Amsterdam. As an example they are building a brand new waterfront and it looks like it is going to be unlike anything anyone has ever seen. We enjoy living in Vancouver but this city is getting just too expensive for everything. My point is Seattle seems like it is putting money into its services and parks and we just keep building glass towers without care to how it affects living everyday.

Why pay more here when we could potentially live in a sister city that has so much more to offer? Seattle also has its amazing restaurants, we find it to have nicer and better shopping, without a doubt a better art and music scene, large parks, and bohemian culture. Not to mention it is a beautiful skyline and the architecture is not monotones. Overall we love it there and we would venture to say it is actually a much nicer city than Vancouver especially when you take a tour of it on foot.

So when we see median prices nearly triple here in Vancouver over what they are in Seattle then we know we are going to get nailed here in a crunch. It just doesn’t make any sense and most anyone of our friends would agree living in Seattle is a nicer experience in general. Personally we think all the hype as being the Best Place on Earth is nothing more than a ploy to make us all feel good about the ridiculous debt levels we now somehow stumbled upon. Anyone who believes it is the Best Place on Earth here needs to travel more frequently. You do not even need to get off the continent to know differently. All you need to do is drive two and one half hours South.”

- JoeJoe Bee at greaterfool.ca 9 Mar 2012 at 10:14pm


Funny I just had a conversation with a co-worker about this same topic and came to the exact same conclusion. Seattle and to add Portland have way more going for them than Vancouver. They have a soul….a vibe…sense of community which you can feel. Vancouver although now much more diverse lost this decades ago…

- vanlocal at greaterfool.ca 9 Mar 2012 11:50pm

“I just found out my ex-girlfriend is now a mortgage broker. I shudder to think that someone who was so financially irresponsible is now advising people on their biggest purchase in life.”

“I just found out my ex-girlfriend is now a mortgage broker.
I shudder to think that someone who was so financially irresponsible is now advising people on their biggest purchase in life.
I don’t know what you need for qualifications to become a mortgage broker these days, but she has no degree, worked pretty much in sales and call centers her whole working career, can barely manage her own finances.”

- 4SlicesOfCheese at VREAA 8 Mar 2012 5:14pm

Renter Rant – “I make good money, have done everything right from a financial planning perspective, analysed the market in detail and it hasn’t made any sense to buy in for YEARS. Found out this morning I have to move again. Moving SUCKS!!!!”

“Enough is fcuking enough. Found out this morning I have to move again. My stupid mistake for not setting a 2nd lease. They are selling and cashing out – can’t blame them. They are friends of my brothers and gave us an indication they were holding long-term. SO STUPID OF ME!!! A 2 year old, prego wife, new job – timing could not be worse!
But seriously, I make good money (top 5% of Canadians), have done everything right from a financial planning perspective (pay yourself first, hired experience investors, diversified portfolio blah, blah, blah), analysed the market in detail and it hasn’t made any sense to buy in for YEARS. I couldn’t make myself buy in even back in 2007. But still it keeps going up, and lucky people keep getting to feel smug, and look down their nose at renters, and put themselves in CRAZY levels of debt. What the heck are you supposed to do get some stability (don’t answer that – I know get a lease – STUPID ME!). The very basic house I am in (getting booted from), in the neighborhood I grew up in will list and sell quickly for $850K!!!! Blows my mind.
All of this brought to you by our f’d up government who think grants to get more people into the market actually addresses the affordability problem. WTF!
We let real estate investors and contractors and planners run CMHC so they can drive more business for themselves. Really a government program to make housing more affordable and accessible insures INVESTMENT properties. WTF!!!
Total insanity. Heads gotta role at some point here. What’s involved in starting a revolution?????
Yes I’m tired of moving, but my biggest concern is what we are doing to Vancouver for the long-term. Assuming it ever goes down (starting to have doubts at times these days) the correction will be HUGE, and will slaughter so many of today’s smug faces. They will get their financial assess handed to them, and likely never recover. With how many of them there seems to be, what is that going to do to the city I grew up in and love, but have a hard time enjoying living in these days.
Moving SUCKS!!!!”

- RentersRant at VCI 29 Feb 2012 at 9:30pm

‘RentersRant’s biggest concern at this moment is clearly not about “what we are doing to Vancouver for the long term”, nor should it be. He has more immediate personal concerns about the profound inconvenience of being forced to move. We sympathize, moving ‘sucks’ at the best of times; when it is a forced move it is that much more unpleasant.
We also sympathize with his longer-term concerns for the city, and how his financial prudence has been punished by monetary policy & the speculative mania while all around the imprudent have been temporarily rewarded.
The spec mania applies destabilizing forces to the rental stock in the city. Any landlord capable of back of the napkin math, and who also has a modicum of insight into where we are in the RE cycle, should be selling. This is not good, it’s just another deleterious effect of the bubble.
- vreaa

Vancouver Realtor Darren – “Here it is Dead. Dead. Dead. March is on pace to have sales down 30% over same month last year.”


[chart care of b5baxter at vancouverpeak.com 8 Mar 2012]

“Here it is dead. Dead. Dead. Remember 2008? It was the year where the spring never came, listings soared and sales evaporated. Vancouver is really trending down that 2008 line right now but stats in all areas are really worse than 2008. March is on pace to have sales down 30% at least over same month last year.”
- Vancouver Realtor ‘Darren’, as quoted at greaterfool.ca 8 Mar 2012

You only die once.
Bubbles too.
Perhaps this is it.
Godot arrives?
- vreaa

“I asked my 200 undergraduate students to raise their hands if they believed they would someday own a home. Only about one in 10 thought they would.”

“During a lecture last fall, I asked my 200 undergraduate students to raise their hands if they believed they would someday own a home. Only about one in 10 thought they would.
My reaction at that moment was shame. I am one of the lucky ones. Born in the great baby boom glut of the ’50s and ’60s, I and most of my peers own a home.
But I fear this will not be the case for my students. Confronted with salaries that have stagnated for almost 20 years, they are faced with a housing market where the real cost of owning a home has increased by 300 per cent during the same time span.”


“Vancouver baby boomers are mostly sitting pretty. While our children struggle to pay high rents, never mind a mortgage, our net worth has risen to a million dollars or more just by sitting in our living rooms. And none of us want this gravy train to stop. City officials in Sydney, Australia, where similar price-to-earnings anomalies have emerged, recently clamped down on house purchases made by outside investors. In Vancouver, to even to mention such a thing is political suicide. Anyone who has bought into the system, however painful the entry fee and however long ago that payment was made, has a deep investment in ensuring that housing values continue their rapid rise.”

“Four units per typical lot. Under present economics, it is just barely possible for the average two-income family to purchase a million dollar home, but only if they have two units to rent out. In most parts of the city, current regulations prohibit subdividing these three units into strata units. This prevents two of the three families from sharing any equity benefits as home values rise. This should be changed as soon as possible. But this is only part of the solution. Given the average incomes in our city, the numbers work out much better if there could be four, not three, units per lot. Given current land prices, this would make it possible to purchase your own two or three bedroom home, with a small garden, in an established neighbourhood, close to schools, for under $500,000. There is a second important benefit as well. Permitting four strata units per lot would allow elderly single family home owners to stay in their home as it is renovated, while liquidating two-thirds or more of the equity they have accrued. Imagine what a benefit this could be to them or their children.”

- from ‘Vancouver’s Demographic Time Bomb’, Patrick Condon (“professor at the University of British Columbia; holds the James Taylor Chair in Landscape and Liveable Environments”), The Tyee, 8 Dec 2012 [hat-tip nonymouse]

Thoughts:
1. 20 years in which wages are flat and housing prices are up 300%-real? Anybody really believe that is vaguely normal? Clearly a bubble.
2. The 4 unit standard lot idea is interesting, and this kind of densification has been suggested by some on these pages. Does the math work? At current prices, could you really get 4 townhouses/condos built on a standard lot for $2M ($500K each?)? I don’t think so; definitely not where lot prices are now in the $1M-$1.8M range. So, prices will be significantly more than $500K. Also, how much square footage are we talking about in those ‘two or three bedroom homes’? 1000? 1200? 1400? Lastly, how about build quality. Will you be living in a poorly-constructed wooden structure with two aspects of your home in direct contact with your neighbours? We suspect so. Essentially, all of these kinds of plans amount to people getting very poor value. Very modest digs at very high prices. It still amounts to asking them to accept far less and to pay more. Compare the units that would result from this densification with the recently featured $500K Seattle home, in a good part of town. No comparison.
Many current calls for densification amount to attempts at keeping prices for current product at high levels; if you can chop it up into four parts and sell each for ‘x’, then the current property must be worth at least ‘y’.
3. As regular readers know, we believe that housing is overvalued by a factor of 2 or 3 in Vancouver, and many of these ‘affordability’ issues will rearrange themselves once the speculative mania implodes. The challenges will look very different. If Patrick had asked his students “How many of you plan to own a home if they were selling for 33% of their current prices?”, he would have gotten a more robust response (and one more reflective of future reality).
- vreaa

“Some people claim that they don’t care if prices go down since they are buying a ‘home’ and not an investment, but I doubt they know what the reality feels like.”

“We had lived here in Squamish for about 14 years when we bought a townhouse at Highland Glen. Almost as soon as we bought, prices went down to the point where we had lost the deposit that we had paid and would have had to pay out of pocket for any realty fees if we had sold. I hated that feeling of having overpaid. Even though we had just bought and had no intention of selling it used to eat me up that we were for all intents and purposes underwater. Some people claim that they don’t care if prices go down since they are buying a “home” and not an investment, but I doubt they know what the reality feels like. Personally I’m glad that we had that experience, it gave me a short, sharp lesson in the fact that real estate can go down as well as up.
Five years later we saw that things were on the up swing and decided to buy a house. By this stage prices had recovered to the point that we would be able to sell for the price that we had bought five years earlier. By some stroke of brilliance/luck we decided to keep the townhouse and rent it out when we bought the house. That year house prices went up 28%, a very nice year to own two properties. A year later we sold the townhouse and reinvested in another property outside of Squamish that had a better cash flow. Renting the TH for 1 year resulted in a capital gain of $100k- Lesson number two: House prices can go up as well as down.
Over the next seven years the value of our house increased rapidly, more than doubling. Our investment property also doubled and I saw that we had likely maximised the short term capital and decided to sell- Lesson three – paper gains are just that until you sell. This set us up to being open to sell our principle residence when we saw that the market was declining. If we had got super lucky we could have made another 100k by selling a bit earlier.
Many of our friends thought we were mad selling the house, I think they are mad not crystallizing their once in a lifetime capital gains. What can’t continue won’t continue. Anyway we are happy renting for now and will continue until it makes sense to buy, which I don’t see happening any time soon.”

- <a href="http://vancouvercondo.info/2012/03/friday-free-for-all-195.html#comments”>Bailing in BC at VCI 4 Mar 2012 at 1:38am
[Part of Bailing's story has previously been told on this site. -ed.]

BMO Flip-Flop – “Deflate Slowly” Becomes “Pop”

“The Bank of Montreal poured cold water on the idea Canada’s housing market could be headed for a crash” … “Expect the housing boom to cool rather than crash”…”While the housing boom is unlikely to continue unless mortgage rates drop much further, neither is it likely to bust.” … “In our view, the national housing market is more like a balloon than a bubble… While bubbles always burst, a balloon often deflates slowly in the absence of a pin.”
- BMO’s chief economist Sherry Cooper and senior economist Sal Guatieri, ‘No housing crash coming in Canada, BMO says’, CBC, 30 Jan 2012

“We’ve always said the market remains vulnerable to a correction in the face of a shock. It could also “pop” in the absence of a shock should current frothy trends persist.”
- Dr Sherry Cooper, Chief Economist, BMO Capital Markets 6 Mar 2012, on Toronto’s RE market

[hat-tip to Zerodown]

1. Something has changed in the last 35 days?
2. CYA.
- vreaa

What Would You Pay For This House?

“This three-bedroom Craftsman was built in 1922 and retains its original hardwood floors and crown molding. The living room has a wood-burning brick fireplace.
The dining room features original hutches and shelves.
The kitchen, which opens onto a back deck, was completely renovated with the addition of new wooden cabinets and floors, lighting fixtures and stainless-steel appliances.
The master bedroom is on the main level; there are two bedrooms upstairs, where there’s also a family room that opens to a balcony.
Behind the house, there’s a sitting area with a pergola, a few garden beds and a concrete patio.”

Reveal:
The house is on the market in Seattle for $499K.
- ‘What You Get for … $499,000.’, New York Times, 29 Feb 2012; Photos
[hat-tip Vesta]

More on the property:

SIZE: 2,460 square feet
PRICE PER SQUARE FOOT: $202.85
SETTING: This house is in the North Admiral neighborhood in the western part of Seattle on a small peninsula between Elliott Bay and the Puget Sound. The architecture includes Tudors, Dutch Colonials, Victorians and Craftsmans; more contemporary houses dot nearby bluffs and have better views of the city skyline, the bay and the sound.
Three blocks away is the neighborhood’s commercial strip, California Avenue, which has bars, banks, cafes, restaurants, grocers and the Admiral Theater, a 1942 Art Deco movie theater and concert hall. Several parks are within a mile, including the 53-acre Schmitz Preserve Park with its old growth forest and walking paths, Alki Beach Park and Hamilton Viewpoint, which overlooks Elliott Bay and the city skyline.
The house is five and a half miles from downtown.
INSIDE: The two-story house was built in 1922 and renovated within the last four years. It has retained the original hardwood floors, crown molding, and built-in hutches in the dining room. On the first floor, there’s a living room with a wood-burning brick fireplace, a formal dining room, a kitchen and a master bedroom. The kitchen, which opens onto a back deck, was completely renovated with the addition of wooden cabinets and floors, lighting fixtures and stainless-steel appliances. The carpeted second floor has two bedrooms and a family room that opens to a balcony. One of the house’s dormers was finished with drywall and shelves to make a small playroom.
OUTDOOR SPACE: There’s a small fenced-in front yard. Behind the house is a sitting area with a pergola, a few garden beds and a concrete patio.

All sounds very reasonable, by Vancouver standards.
Houses like these will likely sell for even less at Seattle’s bottom, perhaps below $400K.
In Vancouver? Definitely far below the $1.5+M that such a property would now be asking on the West-side.
$500K would represent 66% off. Hmmm. That could never happen, surely?
- vreaa

Housing-Bubble-Headedness – “Since I want to open a wine bar one day, I figured house-flipping was one way to jump-start a savings plan at the beginning of my career, when the money is still tight.”


“George, who lives with his mother in a townhouse, wants to open a wine bar. To get a leg up given his modest income, he is looking to speculate in real estate.”

“George has the lofty goals and dreams befitting a budding entrepreneur: He wants a business of his own, easy money, and the freedom wealth brings to put up his feet and retire by the time he is 55 – with an income of $150,000 a year after tax.
Back down on earth, George is 23, recently graduated from university and has just landed his first “real” job earning $35,000 a year plus bonus and other benefits. He lives with his mother in a townhouse in the Guelph area that they plan to flip for a $60,000 profit. He wonders how best to use his share of the anticipated gain.
George’s big dream is to open his own wine bar. He aims to save $70,000 over the next 10 years as a down payment and wonders whether that will be enough to enable him to get the financing he will need. To get a leg up given his modest income, he is looking to speculate in real estate.
“Since I want to open a wine bar one day, I figured house-flipping was one way to jump-start a savings plan at the beginning of my career, when the money is still tight,” he writes in an e-mail. Mind you, that $60,000 profit he and his mother expect has yet to be realized, and they’d need at least half of it as a down payment to buy a bigger, better home.”


“We asked Kurt Rosentreter, a senior financial adviser at Manulife Securities Inc. in Toronto and author of Wealthbuilding, to look at George’s situation. /… As for house-flipping as a way of making money, “Be careful. A real estate correction in the future could leave this ending badly for a young guy with not a lot of wiggle room.”
Mr. Rosentreter says George would need to accumulate $2.5-million by the time he is 55, excluding his home. Assuming a 5-per-cent rate of return on his investments and a 32-year time horizon, he would have to save $33,000 a year to achieve his goal, so he may want to set his sights a little lower. Mr. Rosentreter’s suggestion: “Save what you can.”


- from ‘Champagne dreams with a chaser of realism’, Dianne Malley, Globe and Mail, 2 Mar 2012

See how the distorted economic playing field that results from the speculative mania in housing has perverted the thinking of the young?
It’s all very distracting.
- vreaa

Couple Moving To Vancouver Ponders Rates – “My girlfriend & I have decided to move back and settle in Vancouver. We have put this move off for years due to the insanity that is Vancouver real estate … however, nesting instinct is taking over and we certainly aren’t getting any younger!”

“I have been following your site from over here in the UK for almost a year now. Both my girlfriend (who is Canadian) & I have decided to move back and settle in Vancouver. It’s been a very tricky decision as we will both be leaving secure jobs and I personally believe that Vancouver will be spending the next 3-5 years recovering from the most incredible 10 year credit binge. We have put this move off for years due to the insanity that is Vancouver real estate … however, nesting instinct is taking over and we certainly aren’t getting any younger! Needless to say, we won’t be taking out an $850k mortgage for what look like new 1:1 scale model houses and will settle as mere 2nd class citizen renters to begin with.
Anyway, the real reason for this email… I see there is real potential that the BoC will lower interest rates. As you may know, the base rate over here in the UK is dictated by the Bank of England and has been kept at an historical low since ’09 (0.5%). However, base rates don’t necessarily correlate with that what is paid by the home-owner … the latest over here is that LIBOR has increased and home-owners are going to get stitched (perhaps even those on capped rates!).

[See ''Mortgage timebomb': RBS and NatWest make first move with rate hike for 200,000 customers - Halifax could be next', MailOnline, 2 Mar 2012]
If Canada were to join the sub 1% club, what is the likelihood that the national banks would pass this lower rate on?… will homeowners get the better deal or will it the banks use this as an opportunity to raise capital against an increasingly dodgy looking uninsured (non-CMHC) lending book? As sentiments change and exposure to risk increases, banks could very well end up closing their doors to other banks. Record low base rates would only offer some protection to the homeowner at this point.
Also, if the amortisation period is being lowered along with interest rates, central policy could very well be to help stem the influx of fresh meat into the housing market whilst protecting the financially feckless… but for how long could this façade be played out for?
Not sure if my assumptions are relevant over in Canada, but I hope it at least offers an alternative perspective on the subject of rates and the consequences that are already playing out over here in the UK…”

- from ‘FotheringtonSmythe’, via e-mail to VREAA, 4 Mar 2012

This is an anecdote that supports one aspect of the bull argument – that people will keep coming to Vancouver despite very high RE prices.
As for the question about rates, perhaps readers can add their thoughts.
We personally believe that the market is so overextended that, at some point, it will implode regardless of how low rates go. – vreaa

Spot The Speculators #74 – “My husband and I live in Richmond and have 6 children. Late last year we bought a rancher and renovated it, hoping to sell it as an investment. We are willing to sell far below market value…”

“I opened a copy of the [17 Feb 2012] ‘Delta Optimist’ today and ended up in the RE section [pA25], where I saw a big *half-page* ad that read thusly:

“My name is Ingrid – my husband and I live in Richmond and have 6 children. Late last year we bought a rancher in Boundary Bay from a lovely lady who moved to Vancouver Island.
Here’s our dilemma: We completely renovated this cozy rancher hoping to sell it as an investment. Now that it hasn’t sold, we are carrying more than one mortgage and would like to remain in Richmond. We are willing to sell far below market value because a similar renovated rancher sold for $949,000 on the same street and we are willing to sell for $729,000.
Our realtor will be holding an open house this Sunday at 2pm sharp. If you have any questions, please call…”

Now, this could be typical realtor bullshit, but I’d rather think it’s more anecdotal evidence that 1) People are taking on WAAAAAY more than they can handle because they’re told BPOE RE always goes up in value, and 2) This bloated pig is exploding…”

- posted by ‘gordholio’ at VCI 3 Mar 2012 10:10pm

Thanks Gord.
Real brazenly obvious speculators, so the ‘spotting’ isn’t that difficult, or that much fun, in this case.
“Below Market Value” sales always make us laugh. Whatever this sells for is, of course, the market value.
- vreaa

“Good little story about Kelowna. My buddy’s house has been on the market for a long time and out of the blue he got a bite.”

“Good little story about Kelowna. My buddy’s house has been on the market for a long time and out of the blue he got a bite. It sold for about 5% less than asking and when they were $4K apart he stood his ground and told his Realtor that if he wanted this to happen he and the the other Realtor would have to do something about their commission to make up the $4K because he wasn’t dropping anymore.
At first they said ok, then they said it couldn’t be done, then they said they needed an extra day and sure enough the two of them ate $2K each and the deal got done. Good for him for holding his ground as the realtors tried to wait him out and hoped he would cave.
Even better, he signed a 2 yr lease on a recently renovated 3 bedroom townhouse at the Lagoon’s on the lake for $2200 per month. He figures the place is worth $900K – $1 mil.”
- McLovin at VCI 24 Feb 2012 7:46pm

Laughing Stock – “Inquiring minds seeing new data on Vancouver’s massively overpriced real estate just might be seeking new comparisons to other places.”

Mike Shedlock, blogger at ‘Global Economic Trend Analysis’ [3 Mar 2012 2:16pm], consistently rated one of the top financial blogs in the US, writes: “Inquiring minds seeing new data on Vancouver’s massively overpriced real estate just might be seeking new comparisons to other places. First, Let’s take a look at what $890,000+- will buy in Vancouver:”

2119 East 3rd Ave, Vancouver
MLS® Number V934050
Listing Price: $899,500
Description: “This 1 ? story home has been extensively renovated over the last few years. The spacious kitchen has birch cabinets and Soapstone counters and opens to a 20×12′ deck. On this level are 2 B/Rs and a modern 4pce bath. Upstairs has an office/den area, a 4pce bath and a big master B/R with a W/I closet and 12×8 view deck. The bsmt has a 1 B/R suite rented at $960 P.M. and the attached garage has been converted to a workshop with French doors opening to the fenced garden, with B/I bench, a patio and a kid’s sandbox.”

Mish comments “That creative listing puts a new meaning to the the word “upstairs”. Is the number of stories listed at “1?” really in question?”, and then gives two other similar Vancouver examples, one with touted “amazing views”,  before continuing:
“With those bargain listings in hand, let’s consider a single property sale that just took place in Ireland. The previous price for the Sandhouse Hotel located in Donegal, Ireland sold at auction was $6 million.”

“Paul Diver has purchased a spectacular 55 bedroom hotel overlooking the Donegal coastline for a mere $860,000, down from the $6 million price the original owners sought for the Sandhouse Hotel three years ago.”- msnbc.com 2 Mar 2012

“There you have it: “amazing views” in Vancouver for $899,000 vs. “amazing views” in Donegal for $860,000.
It is indeed “different” in Canada.”
 (- Mish)

A comparison to make even Vancouver bears feel sheepish.
- vreaa

“My parents toured a show home in a recently constructed, $1 million+ development, and my dad, a former contractor, was shocked at the shoddy construction and low-quality building materials.”

“My parents live in South Surrey and my dad is a former contractor. They toured a show home in a recently constructed, $1 million+ development, and my dad was shocked at the shoddy construction and low-quality building materials.
My spouse and I have been looking at condo rentals in Vancouver and we would not even rent, let alone buy, most of the newer ones. I can’t tell you the number of doors askew, floorboards creaking on uneven floors, and paper thin walls we have encountered.
Not to mention the ridiculous floor plans–why do people need 2.5 bathrooms when there no space for a kitchen table? The condos seem to be designed for roommates or childless couples, not families.”

- Sheesh at VREAA 2 Mar 2012 9:52am and 12:28pm

Intense Disillusionment – “This place is a dump. Absolutely. I can’t wait to go back to California. I don’t think I will ever come to live here, even if RE crashed by 60%. The grass is greener on the other side, really.”

“I am back in Vancouver from California today to take care of some more moving out business.
It feels like the permafrost here, pouring rain, traffic jams everywhere you go, and the teachers are on strike…Hahaaa!
I am supposed to be here for a week but I feel like going back tomorrow.
This place looks and feels like the @hole of the world on a rainy day. And it rains forever.
Moving to California seems to be going smoothly, got my social insurance number, had to get my drivers licence and found a nice rental house with swimming pool for $2000 / month. Car insurance is about 35% cheaper than what I pay here and private healthcare insurance costs me $430/month for a family of 4. I have yet to try it to see how efficient it is compared to the 6 month wait for a CT scan in BC.
Like it or not, sunshine brings a completely new dimension to quality of life. I only regret that I did not leave before.
This place is a dump. Absolutely.
I can’t wait to go back to California. I don’t think I will ever come to live here, even if RE crashed by 60%. The grass is greener on the other side, really.”

“Real estate is still expensive here, I agree. But here is a house about 1 mile from where I live selling for $1.3m.”

7209 Sanderling Ct, Carlsbad, CA 92011, 3700sqft SFH, $1.38M

“Compare that with almost any house in Vancouver selling for $1.5m.
And the saddest part is that the idiocy and pain will continue in Vancouver for a long time until the city is completely stripped of its character (whatever is left) and middle class. Those things don’t happen overnight, it takes time for people to notice it on a daily basis.”

- paradox at VCI 2 Mar 2012 5:29pm & 8:13pm

“Dude, the economic freak show is now a big *part* of the city’s character. Come to Vancouver to see 18 year olds racing Maseratis and welfare moms living in 2 million dollar shacks. The guy collecting pop cans is a millionaire. It rains all the time and people say its great. Both newspapers and the main tv channel assure us this is paradise, and you should be happy paying a lifetime’s worth of earnings or even more to live in a coffin with a kitchenette. And people walk around repeating this shit like they have brain-slugs attached to their heads. BPOE!”
- rp1 at VCI 2 Mar 2012 11:18pm

—-

Some strong words. These posts recorded here because they do reflect the degree of disillusionment that some are experiencing.
We’d agree that there are many fine places to live, but we also believe that Vancouver is still one of those fine places.
Vancouver RE is, however, very, very overvalued, and this is crippling the city. We are locked in a speculative mania. Housing would have to drop 50%-66% for it to be even vaguely competitively priced, when compared to viable alternatives. And even after such drops it would still carry a ‘Vancouver premium’.
Until prices revert, osmotic pressure will force many sensible folks away.
This pressure is profoundly deleterious for Vancouver and the area.
Take a look at this post at Mike Shedlock’s very popular US-based ‘Global Economic Analyst’ blog, comparing East Van $900K SFHs with what the same gets you in Ireland. It’s beyond bizarre. As Mish says “It is indeed “different” in Canada.” (We’ll headline his article later).
- vreaa

Vancouverite In Ontario – “My part-time, contract job (1 day per week) pays an annual income almost equal to the average annual income in BC and my house costs one fifth of the average Vancouver home price.”

“We used to live in Vancouver. Moved back to Ontario a few years ago. My part-time, contract job (1 day per week) pays an annual income almost equal to the average annual income in BC and my house costs one fifth of the average Vancouver home price. A similar job in BC would pay me 1/2 of what I earn in Ontario! We have a beautiful century home just north of Toronto that doesn’t require repairs. When home owners spend an average of 90% of their pre-tax income on their primary dwelling, it’s only a matter of time before the cracks appear – and that’s not even factoring in a marginal rise in interest rates and other inflationary pressures. Using intuition alone, I don’t know how this “system of wealth” can continue in Vancouver. Maybe its time to make money the old fashioned way and actually invest in retirement plans. There’s a reason why the feds are strongly encouraging Canadians to reduce their debt burdens.”
- paul at VREAA 23 Feb 2012 6:14am

“I saw my first condo fall in value by 50% in the 1990s. Believe me, it is no fun paying a $400K mortgage when your place is valued at $200K. You will hate your life.”

“So many of the young people I know just don’t get it. All they’ve ever known is that you can’t lose at real-estate – often taught to them by their Boomer parents who bought cheap and rode the prices to the stratosphere. And they are brainwashed into thinking that the goal of life is home ownership.
Wake up to the risks. Do you appreciate that Canadian real-estate is insanely overpriced by any measure?… price-to-income, price-to-rent, price-to-US markets, etc. And this is happening at a time when mortgage rates are at 30+ year lows. Can you see that a bloodbath may occur when rates rise? Do you know that real-estate is CYCLIC? Study history!
Do you understand that real-estate could comfortably fall by 50% and still be overpriced? I witnessed real estate crash in Vancouver by 50%+ in 1980/81. I saw my first condo fall in value by 50% in the 1990s. Believe me, it is no fun paying a $400K mortgage when your place is valued at $200K. You will hate your life.
I can somewhat understand when married-with-kids people in their 30s+ consider buying a house in this market. They want to “nest”. They want to provide their kids with stability in terms of friends and schooling.
But WHY would someone in their 20s even want to partake in this madness? GO TRAVEL INSTEAD, WHILE YOU ARE YOUNG, HEALTHY, AND FREE. Go take up amazing jobs in amazing places. Pursue higher education.
In 10 years you will suddenly find yourself married with kids and loaded down with responsibilities. And you’ll look back and wished you’d taken the opportunity, while in your 20s, to seek adventure and better yourself.
And, funny enough, your friends who don’t buy in this real-estate madness and instead pursue these amazing adventures will likely end up way better off than you. Just around the time you are declaring bankruptcy, wondering why you blew your 20s working as a debt slave to your money-pit that you grew to hate, and wishing your could, for once, afford a nice holiday, your friends will be returning home. They’ll have amazing stories of exotic adventures… Traveling in Australia, going to school in North Carolina, doing volunteer work in Dominican Republic, meeting someone special while backpacking through Europe, taking on a job in London and being transferred to the Vancouver office.
And to add insult to injury, they’ll buy your foreclosed condo for 1/3 the price you paid.”

- The Real Jimbo at greaterfool.ca 27 Feb 2012 12:55am

We Really Do ‘Know’

The Financial Post publishes an article titled ‘Why we’re in trouble if housing craters’, by Tim Shufeldt, FP, 23 Feb 2012.

The ensuing comments:

“Real estate prices in Canada have to come down, because it’s not different here…” – Rafinator

“It’s bad enough that the market can create bubbles on its own. It’s much worse when the government creates bubbles.” – NewWorldPartDotOrg

“Housing bubble is there in Canada and will collapse soon.” – Nickk

“In my experience, many foreclosures are the result of divorces and not just job losses while prices rise since two houses are now needed instead of one.” – Green is the Colour

“As was the case in the United States, certain of Canada’s real estate markets are becoming increasingly less affordable by average families. As shown in this article, out of 35 major real estate markets in Canada, only 9 are considered affordable with 6 being considered severely unaffordable when measured in terms of median price to median household income.” – Georgiaorwell84

“It’s too late….we’ve already passed the point of no return a long time ago. Everyone who’s in debt may as well borrow the rest of their margin and throw a big party. Go out with a big bang…….” – TOC

“Tell us something we don’t know.” – Mithan

That’s it. That’s all the comments.
At FP, not some loonie bear blog.
We know what’s up folks.
All it’s going to take is a price move to the down-side, a decent shove, and we’re off down the bobsled run.
Everybody, out of the pool!
- vreaa

Gord Goble – South Surrey Building Blitzkrieg; Thoughts and Images

Rampant speculation. Cash back mortgages at rock bottom rates. Mania – stirred by corrupt, real estate industry-funded media outlets that routinely broadcast just one side of the story. The widespread yet wholly mistaken belief that “everyone wants to live here.” Realtors as rock stars, chanting the “real estate only goes up” mantra. Buy now or be priced out forever – by hordes of Chinese. Get your real estate groove on.

The reality? Vancouver is home to the most overpriced real estate in the world. Lower mainland owners, on average, spend an absurd 70% of pre-tax income on housing, and ownership rates are upward of an astounding 70%. Mortgages are granted on stated income. Canadians, who owe $1.50-plus for every dollar of disposable income, are some of the most indebted people on the planet.

In short, the wealth we feel is on paper only – a direct by-product of the stratospheric valuations of our homes. And if everyone who could conceivably buy has already bought, if there are no renters left to rent, when the vast majority of our population is already massively in debt, when the foreigners we’re told only want to live in Vancouver find similar homes in better climates at a third or a quarter of the price – as they already have – when interest rates bump up even a point and the mortgage defaults begin, when the crash we’ve already seen in the Okanagan, parts of Vancouver Island, in the eastern Fraser Valley, and throughout most of BC finally sticks its tentacles into the Best Rainforest on Earth, when media outlets can no longer ignore declining prices, when realtors are seen not as investment gods but as the mere salespeople they are, and when this manufactured lie we call a bubble explodes and $1 million teardowns are worth a few hundred thousand, that is the reality. Everything else is merely The Matrix. Cue Keanu Reeves.

Yet the most important reality of all is this: Housing, the buying and selling of real estate to one another, the furtherance of this bloated bubble, is key to this country’s GDP. Indeed, it currently comprises anywhere from a quarter to a third of Canada’s GDP. Without it, we wouldn’t look so seemingly grand on the international stage. We wouldn’t seem to blissfully able to blow through the global downturn. It’s completely unsustainable of course, and hundreds of thousands of families and individuals who bought into the deception will be brutally impacted when it all comes apart.

But in the meantime, it is of utmost importance to our government that the mania continues unabated as long as humanly possible. We can blame the realtors, the media, the banks and the lenders, and ignorant buyers as much as we want. But it can all be traced back to the government. A government that puts up a good face by issuing repeated debt warnings yet at the same time allows this thing to continue full-throttle. “Candy is bad for you, but here’s a real easy way for you to get as much candy as you want.”

And that’s precisely why we in the Vancouver region are witness to a housing construction boom of epic proportions.

I live in a rental house in the Douglas region of extreme South Surrey, between the Peace Arch and Pacific border crossings, south of 8th Avenue. Ten years ago, this comparatively small area – just a few square miles in size – was one part ALR land, one part golf course, one part older homes on massive lots, and one part bush/forest. Indeed, it remained comparatively sleepy, comparatively untouched even two or three years ago. But the turn of the decade signaled change. And what change.

Today, the ALR land and the golf course remain. So far. Otherwise, our neighborhood is a war zone. The battle? Time. The housing/construction/real estate mafia can see the writing on the wall. They know this house of cards, this corrupt pyramid scheme, is about to come crashing down all around them. They know the last of the greater fools is out there right now, somehow oblivious to rationality, planning their fateful purchase. And after that, a void. A gaping chasm of disinterest and wholesale inability to buy.

And so they build. Non-stop. And the marketers market. Non-stop. Anything is a potential target. The forests are gone, in their place forests of signage. Homes are seemingly built in a matter of days. Backyards and a sense of privacy are pass?. The streets overflow with construction waste. Temporary real estate offices are everywhere – from makeshift trailers to show homes and all things in between. And no land outside the ALR is wasted – homes and townhomes are rammed together and crammed into any available spot. Must…catch…the…end..of…the….mania.

Even in the last vestiges of daylight on a Saturday evening, the work continues. And it was on Saturday, Feb 28, 2012, that I snapped these pics. Please note that one can walk from corner to corner of this neighborhood in just fifteen minutes. Despite what the photos seem to indicate, it is not big. Please also note there are in excess of 75 residences, either new or pre-build, currently for sale on the MLS. I expect that number to increase as more units are puked out and come available and as this bubble, finally and thankfully, blows apart. Strange how you can’t sell an overpriced future slum when there are no buyers.

The first image you’ll see below is the current Google Maps aerial shot of the region, likely taken some time recently. Suffice to say it’s now ridiculously inaccurate.

Not much has changed on the west (left) side of 172nd because it’s generally untouchable ALR land and a golf course. Having said that, there are two or three small pockets that aren’t ALR, and of course they’ve been torn up and built upon. And east of 172nd, it’s been a blitzkrieg.

- [Words and Pictures by Gord Goble]



All photos by Gord Goble, who lives in a home he rents within a half mile radius of all of the scenes in the images above.
Gord wrote an important early and rare bearish op-ed for the Vancouver Sun concerning the local RE bubble, and has been a vocal critic of the RE-bullish bias in local media.
Our thanks to Gord for the words and pictures above.

“A high Canadian dollar and an extremely high cost of housing combine to make me less competitive than my counterparts in the US. Housing prices must come down to ensure that Canada is still competitive on the international stage.”

“My concern about this continuing decrease in the US house market is that it appears to be setting them up for an increase in business. My job here in Canada could very well be done by an American faciliy within our own company, and now the US is releasing information that only seems to confirm that their economy is starting to finally grow again. A high Canadian dollar and an extremely high cost of living (housing) combine to make me less competitive against my counterparts in the US. They can agree to take lower compensation and still have a nicer house (better standard of living) than I… my productivity levels are comparable or better when comparing apples to apples, but I get less bang for my buck. Housing prices must come down to ensure that Canada is still competitive on the international stage.”
- Burbs Boy at VCI 29 Feb 2012 12:34pm

‘Well-connected Realtor Source’ – “People now think it’s a bubble and so they are hesitant to buy. The main change now is that people actually think this is over.”

“In Vancouver, for example, listings are running 20% ahead of last year while sales sag by the same amount. Richmond’s sinking. Condos have turned turgid and illiquid. But the real news is what’s being heard on the street.
“People now think it’s a bubble,” our well-connected realtor source reports, “and so they are hesitant to buy. The main change now is that people actually think this is over and the only ones here buying are the few remaining Chinese and those who just can’t avoid a transaction (or whose fortunes do not depend on it). Looking forward to the month-end stats – they will be brutal with (again) only 2009 being worse in the past decade.”
- Garth Turner at greaterfool.ca 29 Feb 2012

“We bought a house with some family help and moved out, but decided to keep the condo because we couldn’t sell it while it was tarped up.”

“My wife and I bought a two bedroom condo (Vancouver suburbs) when we had our first child. Had a second child, things were fine. Had a third child, and things went off the rails. The third ended up having a laundry/pantry room as a nursery with a portable crib. At the same time the condo (our building, but not our unit) sprung a massive multi-million dollar leak.
We bought a house with some family help and moved out, but decided to keep the condo because we couldn’t sell it while it was tarped up. We rented it out (for less than the mortgage payment) to a family that burned every countertop, the carpet and the vinyl balcony deck with a hot pot. They moved out and another family moved in – with a cat, and with a kid that drew on walls. All while we were paying out an ever growing series of special assessments for the building repairs.
We finally decided to cut our losses and sold the condo for half of what we paid for it. Net net we LOST an amount equivalent to the original purchase price.
Moral of the story: Don’t buy a home that doesn’t match your stage of life and that you don’t plan to be in for a good 10-15 years. And don’t buy a leaky condo.”

- Leaky Condo Hell at VREAA, 29 Feb 2012 at 7:59am

Vancouver 2030, Bull Case – “Stop throwing rent down the toilet and filling your landlords shorts with money bags, stop dumping money into risky and volatile stocks or savings account yield negative interest rates.. Be an OWNER and not a renter and GET RICH”

“This Macleans article is all about predictions.. no difference than economist, fortune tellers, mayans
The fact is that Toronto and Vancouver are the most attractive cities in the world and foreigners are trying to bust down barriers to enter these two cities to lay their roots. Here’s why the RE boom will continue:
- Lots of immigration coming in; esp professionals and high net worth families
- Best banking system and excellent government policies in place
- Very competitive in the resources/oil/financial sectors
- Consistently ranked by all financial publications as the best cities to live in the world
- Best educational system in the world
- Diverse, multi-cultural, polite population that are always welcome to foreigners
- Interest rates will stay low for a very long time (think Japan)
- The Conservatives show us that time and time again that they are pro-RE and will not let prices fall at all
Here are the prices for Toronto and Vancouver in 2030:
Toronto
Vancouver -> [see chart above]
Stop throwing rent down the rent
[sic] and filling your landlords shorts with money bags, stop dumping money into risky and volatile stocks or savings account yield negative interest rates..
Be an OWNER and not a renter and GET RICH”

- BobJJones commenting at Macleans 28 Feb 2012

Saved here for the (somewhat broken) record.
“Yes, Virginia, there were people who were still this bullish on Vancouver RE, circa 2012.”
- vreaa