“A close acquaintance of mine lives in the Vancouver suburb of Surrey (an area that respected blogger Garth Turner recently predicted would see a 30% correction if the national market tanks 15%).
A staunch housing bear himself, my close acquaintance rents the house he is currently living in. The home was recently assessed at a value of $450,000 and the landlord is the quintessential poster child of the over-extended, amateur Vancouver landlord.
Owning her own home in Coquitlam (another Vancouver suburb) plus two rental homes in Surrey, she constantly struggles to make ends meet.
Recently a spat of repairs were required on the house my acquaintance lives in.
First, the garage door sustained damage. When arrangements were made for an assessment from a repairman, the landlord asked my friend to pay the $80 charge (which would be deducted from the next month’s rent) because she no longer had a credit card.
Next, the dishwasher failed. A plumber was called and he replaced the garburator (a repair that had been put off since summer) as well as the dishwasher. And while the landlord arranged a cash payment for these (delivering the money to my friend to give to the plumber on the day the work was to be done), the plumber later confided the landlord had been in tears on the phone as they discussed the best place to secure the ‘lowest’ price on a new dishwasher.
I’m sure you won’t be surprised to learn that all repairs seemed to be “under the table” with no apparent HST tax paid.
There are other repairs that are required at the house but are “on hold” because the landlord admits to cash flow problems.
The landlord has told my friend that the house was a gift she received from her parents over 13 years ago.
So does that mean the property is mortgage free?
In the 3 years my friend has been at this house, he has accommodated 3 requests to have the property assessed for HELOC applications. In the most recent visit (always by the same assessor), the assessor let slip that he had also been doing the same on her two other properties. She has maxed out the available equity on this house (about six years ago this money was used to purchase the second rental home), the second rental home and her own house.
Now, with TD Bank expecting a market correction of 12%, where will this landlord wind up?
This landlord (not unlike many others in the Lower Mainland) have been using their homes as personal ATM machines. And the money they have taken out against their properties is spent.
This particular landlord struggles to maintain basic repairs on the homes and is in a personal financial situation where she no longer has access to credit cards.
What will a 12% drop in property values mean to this landlord?
On the one Surrey home (assessed value $450,000), a 12% correction is a loss in $54,000 in mortgaged asset value. A 15% drop translates to a loss of $67,500. If we were to realize Garth Turner’s prediction of a 30% drop – the loss on this house would be $135,000.
Without continued price appreciation, not only is the HELOC ATM most assuredly closed to her for future withdrawals but any major repair or incident will be devastating to family finances.
If the other two homes are of equal value, she is facing a total drop of $162,000/$202,500/$405,000 in asset value (based on drops of 12%/15%/30%), none of which is equity. Are the banks going to blindly renew mortgages on these three properties when she could be underwater by almost half a million dollars on all three combined?
At what point does the straw break the proverbial camel’s back?
How many more are in similar circumstances?
Without a dramatic turnaround in the economy, how can these people avoid any other fate besides default, bankruptcy and foreclosure?
Anecdotal evidence suggests there is a strong likelihood that a higher percentage of Greater Vancouver homeowners are in this situation vis-a-vis the greater mortgage market than there were subprime mortgage holders in the US mortgage market.
A 12% or 15% correction does not sound like much, but given the dynamics of the Vancouver market it could be devastating.”
- anecdote and analysis from villagewhisperer at ‘Whispers from the Village at the Edge of the Rainforest’, 29 Dec 2011. [Thanks, whisperer. Hat-tip to 'Bailing in BC']
Most Recent Comments:
- welschprincess on Business In Vancouver – “To take a job in Vancouver, Calgary-based senior information management consultant Joey Roa would have to give up living in a 3,000-square-foot house just outside the downtown core.”
- YVR Housing Analyst (@YVRHousing) on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- Alexcanuck on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- Alexcanuck on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- Real Estate Tsunami on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- YVR Housing Analyst (@YVRHousing) on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- YVR Housing Analyst (@YVRHousing) on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- bubbly on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- ling on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- Toby on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- Nemesis on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- Raspberry ketone on Commit Crime To Buy A House
Type of Anecdote
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Blogroll
- 01 Vancouver Condo Info
- 02 AmericaCanada [retired, no archive]
- 03 Housing Analysis
- 04 RealEstateTalks BC
- 05 Vancouver RE and then some
- 06 Whispers from the Village on the Edge of the Rainforest
- 07 Greater Fool
- 08 Canada Bubble
- 09 Rob Chipman's blog
- 10 YatterMatters
- 11 condohype [retired; archives available]
- 12 vancouver (un)real estate
- 13 Agent Will's Stats [retired]
- 14 Landlord Rescue
- 15 The Economic Analyst
- 16 Canadian Housing Price Charts
- 17 Hoodsurf [retired Jun 2011]
- 18 World Housing Bubble
- 19 Vancouver Price Drop
- 20 North American Economics


-
Latest Anecdotes:
- ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- “Let’s remember how we got here” – Looser and Looser CMHC Limits
- Don’t Worry, I’m Sure Somebody Will Sort This All Out – “Policymakers now know better and will be a lot more proactive in preventing a collapse.”
- “Things have changed, we are not doing that type of mortgage. We are not interested at all.”
- “We are noticing our target type of housing in price decline, albeit slow, as our money increases in value, slowly as well but outpacing housing.”
- Renter Buys In West Van – “For a few hundred more per month, you could own the place. Which is what I will be doing as my offer for a place down the street has been accepted. There is some value in staying in one place.”
- A Bed in the Bathroom, Why Not? [Let Us Count The Reasons...]
- “My husband and kids are pretty happy in our rental house within cycling distance of work that we could never have afforded otherwise. We’re doin’ pretty dang well, thank you, for median income earners in this expensive city.”
- “I Wish Them Bad Luck.” – Jim Flaherty, on those who wish to profit from Canadian RE price drops
- “We asked why he doesn’t just rent the whole house. He said he can’t, it wouldn’t cover his mortgage – he’ll get more to rent it out as two suites. These new landlords are hilarious, thinking that rent will cover their mortgage!”
- “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- Chat Thread
- Taking A Break
- “My best guess: this property is now an ‘investment hold’ and will be built ‘when prices recover’. Good luck on that!”
- Man Loses $745,000 Vancouver Condo Deposit
- Graphic – Degrees of Housing Overvaluation in Canada
- The Rare Individual With A Negative Ownership Premium
- Advice Regarding Renting In Vancouver, Please – “Unfortunately, the Vancouver rental stock is absolutely atrocious. It just seems like every landlord is looking for someone to pay 100% of their mortgage on a crappy place through rental income.”
- “I just visited Manhattan for a week, and happened to snap some real estate ads on both the Upper West and Upper East sides of the island. Compare to Vancouver. It simply doesn’t compute.”
- Ben Rabidoux In Vancouver Next Week
- “The mortgage company told me they were calling in my 40-year, 0-down mortgage. I have paid nearly sixty thousand dollars towards it, but, nearly five years in, I have yet to touch the principal.”
- ‘Vancouver City Hall: Housing Report Card 2012′; Plus Revised Version
- “My folks find themselves at 65 still owing half the value of their home and recreation property to the bank. After almost 30 years of ownership in the BPOE and a number of boom markets, they have very little to show for it.”
- “Rent for $2,200 a month or buy and have a mortgage of $4,310 per month. Why would anyone buy?”
- “They were talking about two couples they knew who had recently bought a lot and planned to each build a house on it and live as neighbours.”
- Greater Vancouver Home Builders’ Association Annual First-Time Buyer Seminar Attendance Plummets
- Mom and Pop Get It Wrong In All Markets, Time And Again
- The average British Columbian homeowner is not going to pay off their mortgage by the time they retire.
- “He’s sold all his properties except his current one, which is now for sale. He explained that the market’s currently in crash mode, worst that he’s ever seen.”
- “One of my old high school buddies finally got her mother to sell the family home in Kitsilano – sold for over $1M, monies realized after debt paid off $185K.”
- “I know someone who just declared bankruptcy because her condo was assessed at $150k and she bought it presale north of $250k in 2005 or 2006.”
- Sturdy, With Views – “Calling Froogle Scott!… Is Dr. Scott ‘In The House’?” [Not In This One, Certainly]
- “She said the market was dead in Victoria and that it would remain so for a very long time. I asked how she knew. Her answer was fascinating and should scare the pants off the real estate crowd.”
- Kits Notes – “I’m pretty sure that this is the first 3+ bedroom property of any type that I’ve seen in the 5 years I’ve lived here that is priced below $700K.”
- “A beautiful Belfast home, in the equivalent of 1st Shaughnessy, bought at their RE peak in 2007 for £3.5 million, has now sold for £800K, almost 80%-off. The market didn’t suffer any significant economic shocks. Rates & unemployment didn’t skyrocket. They didn’t build more land. Sentiment just changed and the prices fell and fell.”
- “Two family members of hers are trapped, underwater, in condos on the East Side.”
- “Interprovincial migration is not saying good things about BC’s economy.”
- Vancouver RE: Not As Expensive Provided You Don’t Think – “It’s clear that our perception of affordability has been coloured by living on a continent where housing is unusually inexpensive.”
- More Undisclosed RE Industry Insiders Publicized As Clients – “In 1995, Allan and Karin Hoegg were mortgage-free. But no more. Today their Vancouver home is a valuable source of income as they plan for full retirement.”

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On the upside, when things go bad, she can list all three and triple her chances of selling one property quickly to realize some cash. Oops, but they’ll have tenants and deferred maintenance, so they won’t show too well. Oops, but she doesn’t have any equity anyway. It would still be in her best interests to sell one rather than let the bank foreclose and tack on all its fees to her amount owing, but she wouldn’t have the cash for commission and closing costs.
“but she wouldn’t have the cash for commission and closing costs”
…And in addition, if her equity’s already maxed out, if the market drops even a smidge, the buyer’s offer may not even be high enough to cover outstanding mortgage and HELOC balances… Which could mean she’s stuck with the property(ies) until foreclosure/bankruptcy.
It’s not necessarily terrible for the tenant– any urgent repairs/maintenance can be done out-of-pocket and taken off the next month’s rent, and it’s relatively difficult to uproot a tenant with a lease.
Mind you, if I was a tenant and I didn’t have a long lease (or wasn’t certain if my lease would remain valid in the event of a foreclosure), this would be my warning sign that I should be looking for a new home– you never know when a problem with one of her houses could lead to a cascade of foreclosures through all of them.
This is the exact situation I find myself in. We’ve been renting a townhouse in surrey for 2 years. The landlord was forced to sell as I suspect they are not cash flow positive. The place was on the market for 8 months with a 25K reduction before selling. When we were informed of its sale and told to vacate, the landlord was shocked to learn that they owed us a free months rent. (I guess the real estate agent didn’t bother to inform them that this was part of their closing costs) They said that they would have to wait until the place sold as they were cash poor, and the unit had been bleeding them dry.
So here I find myself having to move, not because of my own financial mistake, but because of that of the landlord.
I think we should probably stop referring to Garth Turner as a “respected blogger” I appreciate his perspective and he’s the one who introduced me to the reality of the housing bubble. But his writing style is vulgar and full of unessecary hyperbole. Plus, he now has a vested interest in the bubble hype, selling survival gear and offering his own services as a financial consultant. His perspective is correct, but his methods leave something to be desired. While he makes good points, I don’t think he’s very well respected outside of his own cult and calling him “well respected” only serves to discredit this blog, which I do believe is well respected. The editor of vreaa is certainly much more professional about his/her approach to the discussion.
I think that everyone has a perspective and an opinion. You do not have to read what you do not like.
Sounds a bit immature to be so judgmental. Actually laughable that you would chose to diss one blog and suck up to another
A+B isn’t equaling C here. If this landlord is using home as ATM then why does she have cash flow problems?
Let’s file this one as another “I know a guy who knows a guy” story
Duh, because the ATM (equity) has run dry from overuse. I really look forward to dumbasses like this landlord losing everything – yes, I think they deserve to pay for their financial mismanagement as nobody held a gun to their head to buy that first, second, or even third home.
the post must be from Garth himself! He needs to sell a few more books.
The World’s Housing Bubble
Richard Florida
Dec 16, 2011
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America has suffered through a housing crisis for the past several years, with the average price falling 30 percent, and much more than that in some areas. So it may come as a surprise to many Americans that much of the world still appears to be in the throes of its own housing bubble. The chart below, from the Global Housing Monitor produced by the International Monetary Fund’s Prakash Loungani, offers some perspective.
Housing prices have been falling in about half of the countries, but they’re rising on the other half.
The next chart shows housing prices to be exceeding two of their key “anchors” – the housing price to income ratio and the housing price to rent ration – in many of these countries. While housing price to income ratios are below the average levels in America, they are well above in the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Australia, Canada, Spain, the U.K., Norway, Denmark and Sweden. This is even the case for crisis-prone countries like Italy and Greece.
Canada tops the list on the housing price to rent ratio. Housing prices are significantly overvalued on this score (being driven perhaps by the high global demand for housing in Vancouver and to a lesser extent Toronto). The housing price to rent ratio also significantly exceeds its historical norm in Norway, New Zealand, Belgium, Australia, France, Finland, Spain, the U.K., the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland and several other countries.
Lougani notes that these indicators are a “very broad brush” and that there are “myriad country-specific factors that influence house prices.” Still he cautions when these two key ratios are “above their historical averages, economic theory suggests that declines in house prices may still be in the offing.”
We know how painful the housing crisis has been in the U.S. With the evolving Euro crisis and continuing global economic instability, it’s scary to note that a significant global housing crisis may be in our future.
Keywords: Housing Prices, Housing Crisis, Recession