“Three of my friends are leaving the city. One has already left in the spring, another has left just 2 weeks ago and third is leaving in about 1 month. All 3 are professionals making decent money, 2 of them are leaving the country, one of them is moving to another province. I guess one good thing is that they create job openings for other professionals. There is a good chance I’ll be leaving the country also in the first half of 2012, and i’ll be selling my property when i leave. Not sure how this compares to overall vancouver immigration statistics but I just wanted to throw these anecdotes out there.”
- RENoob at RETalks 19 Oct 2011 3:22pm
“No offense but who cares? People leave cities all the time and more people move in. End of story.”
- vanreal at RE Talks Oct 19, 2011 3:30 pm
Anecdotes about fine young skilled educated professionals leaving are vastly over-represented by sour renters.
Anecdotes about fine young skilled educated professionals arriving are vastly under-represented by sour renters.
- eyesthebye Oct 20, 2011 6:21 am
We look to post both sorts of anecdotes here — but it’s the former type that appear in abundance. We’d like to post more of the latter, please send along any stories of “fine young skilled educated professionals arriving” (and their circumstances), and we’ll post them. – vreaa
We are leaving…no anecdote here, and no sour renter rant either. Vancouver is just getting to out of control to even consider remaining. Either you can’t afford to buy a decent “home”, or you have to pay rent to pay off someone else’s mortgage that they can’t afford. If you do manage to buy something reasonable you are left home poor…
We refuse to play the step stone game, buy a 500 sqr ft condo, and may be upgrade down the road to an 800 sqr ft and if we are really lucky have a house before we die.
We are moving to a province where we can buy a house now…with a real yard…
The game … For me the major dissappointment has been to see that there is a game going on and that ther playing field is unlevel. So no interest in entering this game …no way even a high salary can compete with cheap money, whatever its origin. Also why give hard earned money to a chain of flippers who just sit on a property ? I even accepted lower pay, higher cost of living and higher taxes than other cities, the idea that it made the system more level for everyone. But seeing so many people game the system and get ahead, while legitimate businesses are decimated … reconsider.. .
Hmmm…. “skilled educated professionals arriving”… [and, as it happens, leaving, too!]… Well, IllustriousEd – you did ask…
[G&M] – U.S. wants Canadian crackdown on Iranian procurement agents
“The leaked State Department cable in question was sent to Washington from Ottawa. It shows that one federal Canadian official told the Americans that his “hands were full targeting hundreds of mostly Iranian and Chinese foreigners” involved in setting up front companies in order to procure sensitive technologies.”…
http://tinyurl.com/7kw8srm
and today’s last – a SmashingGood SinCity RE read and further proof, if any were needed, that the power ‘o little ladies should never be underestimated [rhetorical to IllustriousEd: Does what happens in Vegas, strictly speaking, stay in Vegas?]…
[BloomBergBuisnessWeek] – The King of All Vegas Real Estate Scams
“Before the market crashed and home prices tumbled, before federal investigators showed up and hauled away the community records, before her property managers pled guilty for conspiring to rig neighborhood elections, and before her real estate lawyer allegedly tried to commit suicide by overdosing on drugs and setting fire to her home, Wanda Murray thought that buying a condominium in Las Vegas was a pretty good idea.”…
http://tinyurl.com/77jnssx
I dont know about skilled young professionals, but I met a couple people last night who had recently moved here. One was from Montreal, one Australia. Both in their early 20s. Neither of them are what you would call skilled, one a labourer and the other just got a job at a sandwich joint downtown; but they were both set on spending some time in Vancouver.
I asked them both what brought them here, the Montrealer said he wanted to stay in Canada and the winters back home were a bit much. He had been here 2 months and he said he already met some great friends and thinks Vancouver is one of the friendliest big citys he has ever been to (he recently travelled Australia for a year and Europe for 6 months).
The Aussi had originally planned to head around Canada for a year spending 3-4 months in a few cities, but after 2 weeks in Vancouver she is looking for an apartment and plans to spend her full year here.
Neither of these people will replace the people in the anecdote that are leaving, and they may not even be permanent, but I was pretty surprised to hear how highly they spoke of Vancouver compared to their hometowns of Montreal and Sidney.
Don’t get me wrong…when my husband and I moved here in 1996 we never planned to leave…but it took 16 years or so for it to set in that this was not a place to get ahead…
We loved the weather…took 16 years to realize that it may be cold back home in the winter…but it is sunny…
There where lots of reasons to come here…and lots of reasons to stay…but the economics won
That’s the thing though. If you are content working in dead-end jobs and renting a little apartment, you might enjoy Vancouver. Its when you want to start a career, buy a place, have children etc. that you suddenly realize Vancouver isn’t a great place. I’ve met many people over the years, who come here, stay a while, and then go back home when its time to take life seriously.
Yep, perfect for one or two year “working holiday”, seen plenty of those, takes some dedication to hang around after that.
agreed. i have watched a number of friends from Montreal, Australia, AB come here, work a few years and then return home when they decide its time to get serious about their career or settling down into something more than a small condo.
I’m in the same boat. Did the whole go away and make money thing. Saved over $1 million in 5 years working abroad. Had a fantastic client situation, was making amazing money. Came back for what was supposed to be career advancement. Didn’t pan out. Making 65% less, doing same job, working longer hours. Real Estate also went way way up and now – So – even though I could get “something” it just makes no financial sense to own. Renting a penthouse downtown for a 1.5% cap rate.
So – now looking to go back on the world circuit. Vancouver is nice – but if you have a choice of where to be – there is no reason people should make a professional career here . . period.
I have a very deep skillset from my experiences abroad that are just not available from others in the local market – however – the local market won’t pay for it.
People are leaving all the time but Vancouver as a city will not progress and attract any outside talent because if they are mobile, the amount that would have to be paid to be here is so high that nobody will pay. ..
So – - that being said – - I’m out as well!!!! Tough to imagine really.
No sour renter’s rant here either. My wife and I left because of career opportunities elsewhere and a lack of those in Vancouver. We left before the housing hard-on 2003-2008. We would like to move back someday, but honestly for us, it is more about jobs and job satisfaction and less about the housing costs. We earn about 20% more in Calgary than we would in Vancouver. It has allowed us to have a better standard of living and we can still come back to Vancouver frequently enough to visit family and friends.
More anecdotes:
Two people who lived here for decades leaving soon … surprising … first comment “we will be able to afford a house”
A long time bull who used to throw at me the known speeches, suddenly saying she would leave if she could.
All’s well and good with the condo life, until the buggy rubber hits the road. Then the calculations with the endgames are undertaken with a bit more seriousness.
I can count 5 friends who have changed careers to work in Real Estate related jobs.
These were well paid skilled jobs in game development and tech companies.
I know 2 that became realtors.
One a mortgage broker ( I dont think that worked out cause last I heard he was slinging credit cards in malls.
2 More taking realtor courses.
I suppose “Fine young skilled educated professionals” is open to a lot of interpretation, depending on whether or not the individual’s anecdote supports your position or not!
I’m in my late 20s, and am an engineer. I moved to Van almost 2 years ago to the day, mostly because I wanted to be on the coast for the better diving, and because I was offered a good job (including relocation). So I check off as one of the fine young skilled educated professionals arriving in this city.
After two years, and investigating buying, I think the RE market here is quite ridiculous. I’m renting a decent place in Kits for less than what I’d be paying for a tiny condo that wouldn’t even be in Vancouver itself. (I pay the landlord’s grossly inflated mortgage, the landlord subsidizes my rent. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other). Either way, I can actually save money rather than pissing it away to interest to the bank for the next few years, in the hopes that if I throw an apple in the air fast enough, it’ll keep going up and never fall back down. It’s different here, after all, perhaps my pitching arm can reach escape velocity……
I am flirting with the idea of moving away. I’m getting job offers in Calgary which would pay me more than I make here. Other locales are enticing me as well with the atmosphere, pay and job opportunities. Heck, I’ll move to the Island if the right opportunity presents itself. I think Van is a nice city, but it’s hardly the BPOE, and the rest of Canada is hardly the hudge-drudge monotony people who have never left the GVRD think it is… If I’m in another city, making more and paying less to live, I can even use the difference to fly on diving vacations…. So I check off as one of the find young skilled educated professionals contemplating leaving for greener pastures. (Or perhaps snowier pastures, depending where life takes me….)
The anecdote of people arriving/leaving all depends on which window you’re looking through. Perhaps the more useful, and vastly more difficult to establish, metric would be the average length of stay?
Average length of stay is probably age, race, and life-style dependent but I’d guess the overall average is shorter than 4 years based on my experience. On average common sense and economics always win.
That is a good question, what type of residents are moving, and what lifestyle do they want. The most ambitious tend to find Vancouver’s environment a bit slow. I get the feeling, from time to time, that those trying to pull the province into a business friendly era have a long way to go.
Well, we’ve had it and we’re looking to leave too.
What’s our profile? Writer/teacher/editor (me) and UBC humanities professor (husband). Between us, 4 Harvard degrees, 1 Yale, 1 Cambridge. (No, we’re not filthy-rich Ivy League brats, but middle-class people who studied hard and got various grad scholarships.)
Why are we leaving? The housing situation is beyond ridiculous. The builder of the latest condo development at UBC breathlessly advertises its extremely expensive “shoebox” suites as excellent “short or longterm investments,” while we’re afloat in sewage (2nd basement backup in 5 weeks) in the one rental we found where the landlord’s answer to the question “How long can we stay?” was “Maybe about 5 years” as opposed to “Depends on the market.” (Note to hopeless housing-seekers: professionally managed apartment buildings may be the way to go.)
Sorry to hear that you are considering this, Vesta.
How much would prices have to drop for you guys to consider purchasing?
@Vreaa Host — Thanks — we would miss this blog!
As for the question about how much prices would have to drop for you guys to consider purchasing — I was going to say “100%.” I’m math-challenged, but my more versatile husband suggests we say “66 percent.” But everything besides houses costs so much here too that the idea of putting a giant RE sinker around our necks doesn’t really appeal any more.
You have the option of moving. In another galaxy far far away a family cannot move due to negative equity.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Consider yourself lucky to be the former
@Jesse – Yes, that’s a good way to look at it!
Love the galaxy metaphor. I’m thinking you might mean ones like those near that cluster called the Vegas Strip….
Yikes! Cambridge! Were you allowed to walk on the grass, Vesta?
Bonne chance on your YVR exfiltration – but we’ll miss ya!… and not, I suspect, just on this blog… (Pssst… When you guyz do pull the ripcord, try to avoid landing in venues where the coaches have more sway/swag than Dept. Heads)…
Nem, good question about the grass! the answer is: no. only the dons. a rather sick-making sight when one who especially enjoyed the privilege would stride across the courtyard while the elderly “bedders” (local women who acted as maids for the college residents, including dons and undergrads) lugged their heavy buckets the long way round.
we know what you mean about coaches v. scholars too (sigh).
we’ll be checking this blog for some time, so will continue to look forward to your posts, among others!
This one’s for you and your S.O., Vesta [the weekend's best think piece, and it could as easily have been written for denizens 'o YVR as London]…
[NewStatesman] – David Lammy’s Lesson: The Tottenham MP has started the hard work of asking how Labour should respond to the crisis laid bare by the riots.
…” For every opportunist looter grabbing something free because they could, there were ten who knew the humiliation of being second-class in a culture of conspicuous consumption. Foot Locker isn’t just a store selling trainers, it’s a source of positional goods. Our consumer culture teaches the young that you must own to achieve status, and in order to own, you need money.”…
http://tinyurl.com/87q2t62
yikes, make that, “your S.O.”… I was writing two things at once [Zaphod Beeblebrox always slips up like that, too]…
do you have to live at UBC? Westside? There are some better family neighbourhoods in different areas of Vancouver. Travel around a bit
Me and my family are out of Vancouver in April or May, possibly sooner. We are heading back to Ontario where we will be able to have a much better better family life than we can have here, and business opportunities are much better. While housing is not the only reason we are moving out it is one of the top three reasons we are getting out of Van. Who knows if vancouver housing market will ever correct or be reasonable (i.e. average family with average income can afford to buy the average house) we won’t be around to find out, I doubt that we will return to Vancouver in the future.
That’s the thing: for everyone I’ve ever known who left a place they’d called home for a long time, the hardest thing was deciding to leave. Once gone, things were easier and they rarely returned.
Lose someone with professional training, let them set up shop and start/raise families somewhere else, and in many cases they’re gone for good.
this is it, I am moving to detroit.
Are you going to take your overpriced cardboard box with you?
I have been thinking of leaving for a while
Profile: Chinese, been in Canada for 20 yrs, U of T, working in IT for 15 yrs, own house in rmd.
Destination: China
Reason for leaving: glass ceiling (career, income)
Don’t know what to do with the house yet, might just leave it empty since we will be back from time to time.
hey, where are you in RMD? We are currently housing sitting for one landlord who don’t want to extend the lease. So we are looking for a new place. If you are interested in having house sitters, email me at space889@hotmail.com with your house info and price.
“might just leave it empty”
A couple years ago, a house near me was left empty over the winter. Its roof collapsed after a heavy snowfall. You have to keep it heated.
Not to mention homeless people could break-in and burn it down. Or it gets ruined by a flood that’s not detected quickly enough.
I don’t get why you don’t sell it if you’re living in a different country.
About that, I am not worried. I have relatives living nearby and they will take care of it.
If there is good tenants, I might rent it out. But from what I read here, it sounds a lot of trouble.
At some point, I might still come back to Vancouver, either my plan doesn’t fan out, or I don’t have to worry about money any more, so selling is not really an option.
So you’re going to heat an empty house all winter, and pay any fixed utility costs and property taxes?
What if your relatives move, tire of care-taking your property or understandably ask for some kind of compensation?
Your reasoning for not selling it doesn’t make sense
BTW I’m speaking as someone who care-takes a couple of homes for relatives as a favor when they go on vacation. Plants aside (no pets), the houses themselves can’t be left alone for any length of time. You need to be constantly creating the impression of someone living there. Collection mail and newspapers, turning lights on and off (timers help), raking leaves, mowing lawns and shoveling snow. Even spending a bit of time there, now and then.
I don’t mind doing it because its only a matter of days or weeks, and its an occasional thing. But they asked me to watch over their houses for years on end, I’d ask them to pay a security company to do it or find a proper house-sitter or tenant. Be careful how much you lean on relatives.
Meant to say “if” they asked me…
i have a great TRUE STORY about Vancouver house-abandoning. Young UBC student has mansion in South Shaughnessy neighbourhood. Leaves for summer to go back to China, simply locking the door behind her. Comes back in autumn, house is covered in mould. Her parents bought her another one.
We know a young married couple that is moving to Vancouver from Victoria. He’s an IT manager, she works in admin. They have been checking out condos in Vancouver, does that count?
Oops, somehow I deleted the part about the condos..correction, they think renting is a waste of money so they are looking to buy..
I moved to Vancouver in 2007 straight out of university, so I count as a “fine young skilled educated professional arriving”.
I’m doing okay here. Vancouver isn’t horrible, isn’t heaven. I stay mostly for the people. We’re an interesting bunch.
I think that I’d be financially better off if I was living in Ontario, but not overwhelmingly better off. If I was going to get more serious about developing my career, I expect I’d need to leave Vancouver.
Buying a condo would destroy me financially. I’m sure a mortgage broker could set me up, but then I would have to budget like I was poor. Why would I want that? The market was crazy when I got here, I don’t expect it to become sane anytime soon. I see owning real estate the way young professionals in other cities see owning a… I dunno, say a luxury yacht. It’s just not going to happen.
I’m not planning on having a family. If I change my mind, I’ll move. Watching other young families struggle is sad.
granite,
“I’m not planning on having a family. If I change my mind, I’ll move. Watching other young families struggle is sad”.
young families expect it to be hard and view this as the choice they made to have children and live here.
What’s the expression? Anything worth having is worth fighting for.
Don’t give up the fight
vesta et. al.
I wish there were a way to keep you all. Sadly, if it’s a detached house with picket fence (i.e. 60′s picture of urban life) you’re after then Vancouver will not be able to supply you with one. There are some nice alternatives, even at UBC…some larger townhouses, half duplexes, etc.
Nice, perhaps, but overpriced to a similar degree.
See above: Vesta’s comment on a recent UBC development: “extremely expensive “shoebox” suites [marketed] as excellent “short or longterm investments”.
formula1, you’re again presenting the “accept far less” argument, implying that those pointing out the overextended prices (for ALL properties) are being unrealistic. They are not. They are simply comparing what they get here with what they can reasonably expect, and finding that Vancouver RE comes up very short.
Remember, Vesta has also pointed out that she could purchase a decent SFH within 15 minutes of Harvard, for $400K.
“you’re again presenting the “accept far less” argument, implying that those pointing out the overextended prices”
with densification I’m recommending you accept reality…you are telling your readers to accept a scenario that is unrealistic
I personally expect to move to a multi-family dwelling when I feel price gap is great enough – I will spend the majority of my years in multi-family housing. Developers will buy what I own and convert them from detached to multi. This is reality…sorry vreaa
@formula1: You’re not sorry. Save yourself the bandwidth and stop saying it.
@formula1:
Oh really? you will sell what you own to developers who will convert them from detached to multi?
That”s funny, because
““my personal stake in Vancouver real estate is nil. I am not looking to buy, sell, or trade real estate and I do not derive my income from the industry.”
O RLY?????
@Host, Royce, TPFKAA –
Thanks for your points about this matter! I had written several drafts of gobsmacked replies about picket fences and overpriced UBC townhouses, but they were too intemperate to post.
Nice try formula0, you can’t find the trend. The psychology of the market has switched. Hope your mandarin is better!
without the housing affordability problem, you paid a premium to live in van already. that premium was cost of living, career and earnings limits, higher taxes, entitlement mindset. but it was sort of a peaceful living at the edge of the bigger world, and maybe worth the premium (marin county and area just north also comes to mind). city planners were always trying to turn the town into something it intrinsically was not – a world class center of who knows what. after this whole credit bubble blows over – and I mean the grander version – it might be that nice, quiet urban center at the edge of the world again. and i’ll be back.
I’m in my late 20′s and I moved here with my family a year ago. I work in visual effects, which is booming in this town right now. If you are willing to work overtime you can make some pretty good coin in this industry. I make a modest salary but have a good work/life balance and am very happy where I work. I admit I am priced out of real estate here, and I do not want to rent forever. I will give this place five years, if things are not better than I will look for prospects elsewhere.
Probably not – “it might be that nice, quiet urban center at the edge of the world again…” With technology, globalization etc, Vancouver will never again be pre-expo 86 days. People from other countries will always want to come to Canada, and many will go to Vancouver. On the other hand with increased technology etc, one can easily see what other cities have to offer. Even through travelling, I have seen just down the west coast in Seattle, Portland, San Diego etc what $1 million buys and it is a lot more house than anything in Vancouver. (and one without mould Vesta!) People are much more mobile now and personally I have had around 8-10 friends leave Vancouver, and 2 came back.
just my own wistful recollections i sort of see van as having lost its soul, trying to be something it’s not. and nobody likes a phony. people, especially outsiders, liked it precisely because it wasn’t new york, or hong kong, or wherever. those places all have robust economic power and diversity, which van does not – so it shouldn’t try to act it. i hope it can find it’s way again.
Thanks Nem for all your reading suggestions and all the other good articles and videos you post links for! I’ve learned much recently from you, Jesse, the host, Makaya, Jeff Murdock, Royce, Julian, Hazu Chan, Chubster, and many other helpful commenters (“too many to name”!).