“We’re in our late 30′s and were *extremely* lucky in being able to purchase a home on the North Shore where we grew up with the profits from selling our previous home at the peak of the boom. We plan to stay here for a long time, so a collapse isn’t going to affect us in the same way that it would if we planned on “cashing in” by selling the place (always a dumb thing to count on anyway!). We have well paid secure jobs and a low enough mortgage that we could handle living on one income if needed. We would never have done it otherwise. I see people my age with $500k mortgages and it makes me just cringe. I have no idea how they can live, given salaries in this town, unless they’re dealing drugs on the side, and a lot of people probably are.
The only reasons that we stay in this town is that our family is all here and we are not financially stretched. I like this city less every year, and if we didn’t have the family ties, we would leave in a heartbeat for better opportunities elsewhere. My advice to anyone who can leave here is to get out and not look back. This city is the real estate and social equivalent of rat poison.”
- RESkeptic at VREAA 7 Nov 2011 10:13am
Most Recent Comments:
- Toby on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- Nemesis on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- Raspberry ketone on Commit Crime To Buy A House
- Nemesis on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- You're sore, not hurt. on ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- Ralph Cramdown on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- Farmer on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- kabloona on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- Brian on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- Nemesis on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- Burnabonian on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- dumpster diver on “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
Type of Anecdote
- 01. He Said, She Said (247)
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- 05. Where do Buyers get the money? (962)
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- 21. Vancouver RE-Verse [Found Poems] (8)
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- 01 Vancouver Condo Info
- 02 AmericaCanada [retired, no archive]
- 03 Housing Analysis
- 04 RealEstateTalks BC
- 05 Vancouver RE and then some
- 06 Whispers from the Village on the Edge of the Rainforest
- 07 Greater Fool
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Latest Anecdotes:
- ‘Doomed’? – “Home prices in Canada are now double what they were in the 1970s in real terms. Historically, over the very long term, real home prices tend to be flat.”
- “The bank encouraged her to take the equity in her home to purchase another home. She bought a 2nd home at the peak.”
- “Let’s remember how we got here” – Looser and Looser CMHC Limits
- Don’t Worry, I’m Sure Somebody Will Sort This All Out – “Policymakers now know better and will be a lot more proactive in preventing a collapse.”
- “Things have changed, we are not doing that type of mortgage. We are not interested at all.”
- “We are noticing our target type of housing in price decline, albeit slow, as our money increases in value, slowly as well but outpacing housing.”
- Renter Buys In West Van – “For a few hundred more per month, you could own the place. Which is what I will be doing as my offer for a place down the street has been accepted. There is some value in staying in one place.”
- A Bed in the Bathroom, Why Not? [Let Us Count The Reasons...]
- “My husband and kids are pretty happy in our rental house within cycling distance of work that we could never have afforded otherwise. We’re doin’ pretty dang well, thank you, for median income earners in this expensive city.”
- “I Wish Them Bad Luck.” – Jim Flaherty, on those who wish to profit from Canadian RE price drops
- “We asked why he doesn’t just rent the whole house. He said he can’t, it wouldn’t cover his mortgage – he’ll get more to rent it out as two suites. These new landlords are hilarious, thinking that rent will cover their mortgage!”
- “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- Chat Thread
- Taking A Break
- “My best guess: this property is now an ‘investment hold’ and will be built ‘when prices recover’. Good luck on that!”
- Man Loses $745,000 Vancouver Condo Deposit
- Graphic – Degrees of Housing Overvaluation in Canada
- The Rare Individual With A Negative Ownership Premium
- Advice Regarding Renting In Vancouver, Please – “Unfortunately, the Vancouver rental stock is absolutely atrocious. It just seems like every landlord is looking for someone to pay 100% of their mortgage on a crappy place through rental income.”
- “I just visited Manhattan for a week, and happened to snap some real estate ads on both the Upper West and Upper East sides of the island. Compare to Vancouver. It simply doesn’t compute.”
- Ben Rabidoux In Vancouver Next Week
- “The mortgage company told me they were calling in my 40-year, 0-down mortgage. I have paid nearly sixty thousand dollars towards it, but, nearly five years in, I have yet to touch the principal.”
- ‘Vancouver City Hall: Housing Report Card 2012′; Plus Revised Version
- “My folks find themselves at 65 still owing half the value of their home and recreation property to the bank. After almost 30 years of ownership in the BPOE and a number of boom markets, they have very little to show for it.”
- “Rent for $2,200 a month or buy and have a mortgage of $4,310 per month. Why would anyone buy?”
- “They were talking about two couples they knew who had recently bought a lot and planned to each build a house on it and live as neighbours.”
- Greater Vancouver Home Builders’ Association Annual First-Time Buyer Seminar Attendance Plummets
- Mom and Pop Get It Wrong In All Markets, Time And Again
- The average British Columbian homeowner is not going to pay off their mortgage by the time they retire.
- “He’s sold all his properties except his current one, which is now for sale. He explained that the market’s currently in crash mode, worst that he’s ever seen.”
- “One of my old high school buddies finally got her mother to sell the family home in Kitsilano – sold for over $1M, monies realized after debt paid off $185K.”
- “I know someone who just declared bankruptcy because her condo was assessed at $150k and she bought it presale north of $250k in 2005 or 2006.”
- Sturdy, With Views – “Calling Froogle Scott!… Is Dr. Scott ‘In The House’?” [Not In This One, Certainly]
- “She said the market was dead in Victoria and that it would remain so for a very long time. I asked how she knew. Her answer was fascinating and should scare the pants off the real estate crowd.”
- Kits Notes – “I’m pretty sure that this is the first 3+ bedroom property of any type that I’ve seen in the 5 years I’ve lived here that is priced below $700K.”
- “A beautiful Belfast home, in the equivalent of 1st Shaughnessy, bought at their RE peak in 2007 for £3.5 million, has now sold for £800K, almost 80%-off. The market didn’t suffer any significant economic shocks. Rates & unemployment didn’t skyrocket. They didn’t build more land. Sentiment just changed and the prices fell and fell.”
- “Two family members of hers are trapped, underwater, in condos on the East Side.”
- “Interprovincial migration is not saying good things about BC’s economy.”
- Vancouver RE: Not As Expensive Provided You Don’t Think – “It’s clear that our perception of affordability has been coloured by living on a continent where housing is unusually inexpensive.”
- More Undisclosed RE Industry Insiders Publicized As Clients – “In 1995, Allan and Karin Hoegg were mortgage-free. But no more. Today their Vancouver home is a valuable source of income as they plan for full retirement.”
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tell that to you entire extended family, and see if they will listen to you and move with you.
tantrum alert! quid pro quo fred/diablo/f1/homeowner/whoeveryouare quid pro quo yes or no
For your information, you are ‘over-collapsing’ those handles:
fred is one commenter.
Homeowner is another commenter.
diablo and Formula1 are the same commenter, who is recently sticking to those two handles, and we’re okay with that. (That commenter previously rusty/rolly/henley/the604/other/etc)
@vreaa. apologies. but they all seem to echo the same sentiment without offering anything. so maybe collapsable in that respect?
fred = diablo on his Mom’s computer.
I have one user name.
Is it so hard for you to believe there is more than one anti-renter opinion?
@diablo: if ‘fred’ and ‘homeowner’ are not you, then you owe them an apology. It’s that simple ‘diablo’ (or ‘Formula1′, ‘rusty’, etc.).
diablo -> “I have one user name.”
–
Do you mean now, or in the past?
Please don’t deny that you posted as the604, rusty, rollie, henley, etc, etc.
Regardless, stick to diablo/Formula1 from now on and we can follow your opinion, which has been fairly consistent.
—
Regardless, ENOUGH.
Let’s stick to content.
Anyone who has to use several different handles has some serious insecurities and perhaps other problems. No one gives the slightest consideration to your comments because of this. Even with the use of multiple handles, I have learned that you are an ignoramus and your netiquette has simply diluted the opinion of any other bulls who have commented here
of course, my comment above is directed at fred, diablo, rusty or who every the hell you think you are.
food and shelter are costs. when the cost of housing rises faster than income, community becomes less affluent – not more. this is probably the most insidious aspect of the housing bubble shell game. people think they’re getting richer when in reality they are getting poorer. the community or society has less free income available for other pursuits. less affluent not more. this happened everywhere. van is no exception. and in fact on the housing valuation to gdp scale, it might be among the worst. then of course, you got all the wannabees thinking they’re climbing the social ladder. their egos inflate along with their ppty values but their free cash flow did not. not unlike someone dumping a free porsche in your driveway but your cashflow barely covers the maintenance + insurance. yes, it is an opportunity. smart ones just ignore – looks nice but i can’t afford to drive it, it attracts unwelcome attention, it’s pretty much a nuisance really. others cash it out, move on. the real unfortunates think they’ve become larry ellison and head for the aftermarket shop with all their credit cards.
if people (homeowners) are getting poorer why you so angry?
I don’t understand why you read anger in that comment.
I don’t live in Vancouver, so this is academic for me. But I do understand why people living in the city would be alarmed that their city is hollowing out its industrial and professional base due to the high housing costs. Rampant land speculation can injure the livability and the economy of a city.
It’s logical that a higher mortgage = less money for other businesses in the city. When lines of credit run out, this may freeze up the circulation of money in Vancouver. That’s the problem of out-of-whack fundamentals — salaries are too low, housing costs are too high. It can become a demand side crisis that stunts the economy.
Excellent points.
Add to this the obvious repercussion of a general degradation of the interactive portion of what would normally be called “community.”
In other words, if everyone is simply scrambling to survive with enough to pay their mortgage – and if so many people are simply moving into a house for “investment” purposes or “property ladder” climbing, with no real intention of actually setting down some roots – then a true networked and vibrant community can never really take root.
This is what I see more and more in Vancouver when I visit, compared to the smaller city that I currently live in. In Vancouver, life is all about your job, your house, and your commute. There seems to be no time for most people to contribute anything beyond that, nor to get to know their neighbors.
And, actually, why bother to get to know your neighbors if they are on the same hamster wheel that you’re on? They’re not going to be able to reciprocate anyhow.
Ultimately, the effects of this bubble delve deep into so many areas and are going to end up destroying this fine town. And it will take a long time to recover.
But if, like, one just follows you home, Chubster… You’re allowed to keep it… Right? Right?
http://tinyurl.com/c5qh6bj
“without offering anything”
beside the wish for a crash, and expression of frustration, have you offered anything?
I didn’t think I would hear myself admitting this, but I agree with this sentiment.
I too grew up on the North Shore, where my parents still reside. The change in the demographics of the neighbourhoods is noticeable. Not in a good way.
Too many young couples stretching themselves to the maximum to buy into the market. Its unfortunate because it affects us as friends when people tighten belts after buying, reluctant to go out, enjoy dining out, vacations.
We own a condo at just a hair over 2x our household income, stretched we are not. We know couples with incomes similar to ours currently trying to leverage family money, equity, and savings into houses 9x their annual income. We never say anything, but its absolute insanity.
All of this is tiring, the only issues discussed in this city are city exclusive problems. We are living in a bubble in more ways than one. The issue of bike lanes downtown is bigger to most people than international conflicts/financial crises’.
“We know couples with incomes similar to ours currently trying to leverage family money, equity, and savings into houses 9x their annual income”.
this is by far the biggest lie told on these sour renter sites.
There isn’t a financial institution in Canada that will lend 9x annual income.
The absolute most you’ll ever get (if you’re clever) is about 5.5.
This common lie originated when the renter heard “9x avg income to afford an avg Vancouver home” and included renters, welfare recipients, unemployed, seniors, students, and every other breathing adult to collect an avg…but only took home sales data to arrive at an avg property price; failing to realize that the homebuyer has much higher income than the previously mentioned list.
Historically, the “previously mentioned list” (“renters, welfare recipients, unemployed, seniors, students, and every other breathing adult”) have always been included when making calculations of price:income ratio.
Why should we suddenly change that now, to only include ratios calculated based on average income of “homebuyers”?
You’re comparing apples to oranges.
no vreaa, I’m comparing avg income of a home buyer with avg income of a home. That’s apples to apples.
What the calculation of annual income/price does is inflate the avg to produce sensationalist media worthy data. What you do when including the welfare recipients, renters, seniors, students et.al. is akin to sending a chimp to the moon and calling it an astronaut.
“We know couples with incomes similar to ours currently trying to leverage FAMILY MONEY, EQUITY, and SAVINGS into houses 9x their annual income.”
See the difference. They are not borrowing 9x income, they are leveraging 9x of all those things combined. So if they lose money, its not just theres, they can share the pain with family, how nice.
4SlicesofCheese, don’t sweat it: reading comprehension has never been the strong suit of eyesthebye/rustie/rollie/diablo/Formula1/etc.
diablo -> “no vreaa, I’m comparing avg income of a home buyer with avg income of a home. That’s apples to apples.”
–
Actually, that’s completely meaningless… (“average income of a home”(??).)
That glitch aside, we understand what you’re trying to say: you’re arguing that homebuyer_income:home_price ratio is what’s important, not average citizen income to home price.
Okay, say it is.
What are you comparing it with?
Where are the historic data showing that that ratio isn’t currently inflated?
Exactly, you don’t have the historic data, do you?
What we do have historically is average income versus home prices. That average has ALWAYS included the entire population (your list above included). And that ratio shows that Vancouver home prices are very, very overvalued compared to incomes; more so than ever before.
You can’t suddenly come up with a newly defined ratio and use it as indicative of anything. You have nothing to compare it with.
diablow – by your measure the price to income ratio for Calgary is less than 2. Make up some more bullshit ratios and valuation methods to rationalize away your general ignorance!
I agree with Burt. That is the beauty of vancouver, is the excellent dining and great things to do around the city, but if people do not have money to afford these things anymore that can hurt the economy. How is the change in demographics in North Vancouver noticable? Most friends who bought on the North Shore seem to like it and at least have somewhat normal neighbors, whereas my inlaws on the westside have probably 8-10 homes (Asian) where you never see anyone. There is little neighborhood feel. I also see many people trying to “live the lifestyle”.
Original comment author here. I’ll give you a quick example of some of the demographic changes. I grew up in the upper Delbrook area of North Van. My family is still around there. When I was a kid and teen, and even in my early 20′s, we all knew most of the people on the block, even if they weren’t close friends, and it was pretty solidly middle/upper middle class. Most people either had kids or their kids had grown up and moved from the house. My parents are still in the same house I grew up in, and now they barely see any of their neighbours and there are at least 5 semi-abandoned houses in a 10 house stretch that have been bought by speculators and let rot. FTR, I’m now 35, so all this has occurred in a pretty short stretch of time. We live in what is still a pretty “neighbourly” community in North Van, but it’s still noticeable that there are a lot fewer families with young kids, and those that I have talked to who live here are very stretched financially, which makes it hard for them to participate in outside activities. Our financial adviser sees a LOT of people on the North Shore who lool like they are doing OK (cars, house, kids with a nanny) but are B.R.O.K.E.
In West Van, the credit “lifestyle” thing and the satellite kids (kids stay here, parents go home to China) is even more prevalent.
Also, I see WAY more houses on the north shore now which are obviously grow ops or where I hear from the neighbours that they are rented to drug dealers or are flop houses. “Hey, if it pays the mortgage on the investment, who cares?” seems to be the attitude of the absentee landlords. That kind of stuff is truly destructive to neighbourhoods as well.
The issue of bike lanes downtown is bigger to most people than international conflicts/financial crises’.
Why shouldn’t it be – you can actually do something about the former.
vreaa,
nitpicking my late night post? I’ll be sure to have my lawyer proof read before posting.
Anyway, back to biz…
Tell me the multiplier of family income of actual homebuyers? When you filter out all the people that would/should never buy a home I think you’ll find that housing affordability is fitting quite nicely for a lot of people.
As far as the “leverage” of 9x income…it sounds like the argument here is the HELOC, not the home prices. I agree. Lending policies to protect owners from their own stupidity by not permitting them to borrow against the equity. When did that start anyway? I don’t remember HELOC 20 years ago
Hey diabularollusty1: moving goalposts is moving goalposts.
You want your posts to be considered anything besides hot garbage? Provide the historical data vreaa asked for RE: your new metric.
now it’s starting to sound like we might all be able to go out for a beer together. like lu and timmy did over the summer. i’m in an extra silly mood. allow myself to respond for … ahem … myself and let a bit of the narcissist freak out. well, better here than the stock market … that’s for sure!
angry? sure, you bet. people are suffering out there, really suffering. and what i read from some of you turds is pretty much like kicking them when they’re down. THAT does make me heat up a bit. doesn’t matter if qe2 or the mother teresa did it. that’s just wrong. the point is even if you’re too dense to believe housing affordability isn’t your pb, it very much is. cost of housing rising so much faster than income is hollowing out the productive, creative elements. i know that because i checked out the stats on housing value to gdp – believe it, it’s pretty much an airtight argument, not anecdotal. and let’s just say your wet fantasy comes true, rivers of ham flow and it really does become hongcouver (not a chance for various reasons imo though i’ll concede it’s not impossible) … will it matter to you when you grocery bill at choices doubles? will it matter to you when you’ll need $50k-$60k-$70k to hire a decent nanny? what about the guy collecting the trash? maybe he’ll need $60k/yr just to survive and they raise your taxes to pay for it. well, ham can do but maybe not u … baby.
if you’re the kind that kicks people when they’re down, i wouldn’t care if they gave me a heritage mansion and paid me to live in it. why would i want to live next to you? why would i want my kids to even see you? and you know how i can tell you’re not really that rich? and that you’re just a wannabe? do you know what really rich people are the most terrified of? i do. it’s social unrest. because they know desperate people with nothing to lose are capable of remarkable acts. why do think buffett placates the masses with “tax me more, i’m too rich” gag? i used to believe some of the stuff he said but with all the deals he got recently, he may as well be the new face of cronyism.
Anyway wannabees, this silly narc has got one for you … sing along now …
hot asian money nouveau riche
van RE wannabe pseudo riche
… … … for nowwwww.
repeat
shiva is coming friendo (more on that another time). shiva is coming for us all. enjoy.