“A software developer that worked on one of my projects has moved to Ontario. Another one announced that his wife is pregnant and once the baby arrives, they are moving back to Europe.
In the past few years, I have been looking for several software developers for my business. The positions were mostly for senior or at least intermediate developers and were advertised on craigslist, BCTechnology and Monster. The funny thing was that for every single position from all sources, the pool of applicants was virtually the same – same people and most of them were not very skilled. Out of those few that were skilled, some left or are leaving soon.
Recently, I talked to an IT recruiter. He told me basically the same thing – there are almost no quality people and he sees the same applicants again and again. He said that he has never seen such a shortage.
So there is the silver lining – if you are a quality software developer, it should be easy for you to find a job, because many quality people have left.
However, salaries for these positions are still lower than in Toronto or Montreal. That may eventually change in bigger companies. I doubt that small companies can afford to pay more, because the owners need to make money too.”
- bubbly, at VREAA 12 Oct 2011 5:47pm
Most Recent Comments:
- Nemesis on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- 4SlicesofCheese on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- LadyInWaiting on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- LadyInWaiting on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- bailinginbc on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- Real Estate Tsunami on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- Real Estate Tsunami on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- LadyInWaiting on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- Nemesis on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- terminalcitygirl on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- Xyz on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- rod_jonsson on “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
Type of Anecdote
- 01. He Said, She Said (247)
- 02. Profiting from the Boom (441)
- 03. Changed my Life (103)
- 04. Changed my Career (38)
- 05. Where do Buyers get the money? (958)
- 06. Held my Nose and Leapt (96)
- 07. Avoiding Vancouver (375)
- 08. Overextended Buyers (1183)
- 09. Delaying Buying (315)
- 10. Demoralized Renters? (362)
- 11. Regrets about Investing in RE (417)
- 12. Effects of Development (274)
- 13. 2010 Olympics Related (74)
- 14. Social Effects of the Boom (1256)
- 15. Misallocation of Resources (958)
- 16. Missed The Boat? (236)
- 17. The Froogle Scott Chronicles (27)
- 18. Spot The Speculator (171)
- 19. BlastRadiusPostCards (17)
- 20. The Limitless Demand Argument For Ongoing Market Strength (70)
- 21. Vancouver RE-Verse [Found Poems] (8)
- 22. RE References In Popular Culture (41)
- 23. Jumping The Shark (1)
- 24. Policies On Housing (10)
- 25. Epigrams For The Bubble (1)
- 26. Premature Calls Of "Bottom" (3)
- 27. Seller Panic (3)
- 28. Erroneous Causation Theories For Falling Prices (7)
- 29. Bubblespeak (1)
- Uncategorized (176)
Blogroll
- 01 Vancouver Condo Info
- 02 AmericaCanada [retired, no archive]
- 03 Housing Analysis
- 04 RealEstateTalks BC
- 05 Vancouver RE and then some
- 06 Whispers from the Village on the Edge of the Rainforest
- 07 Greater Fool
- 08 Canada Bubble
- 09 Rob Chipman's blog
- 10 YatterMatters
- 11 condohype [retired; archives available]
- 12 vancouver (un)real estate
- 13 Agent Will's Stats [retired]
- 14 Landlord Rescue
- 15 The Economic Analyst
- 16 Canadian Housing Price Charts
- 17 Hoodsurf [retired Jun 2011]
- 18 World Housing Bubble
- 19 Vancouver Price Drop
- 20 North American Economics
-
Latest Anecdotes:
- “My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried that with the housing market going south they may be losing a lot of equity and they better sell now before it gets worse.”
- Chat Thread
- Taking A Break
- “My best guess: this property is now an ‘investment hold’ and will be built ‘when prices recover’. Good luck on that!”
- Man Loses $745,000 Vancouver Condo Deposit
- Graphic – Degrees of Housing Overvaluation in Canada
- The Rare Individual With A Negative Ownership Premium
- Advice Regarding Renting In Vancouver, Please – “Unfortunately, the Vancouver rental stock is absolutely atrocious. It just seems like every landlord is looking for someone to pay 100% of their mortgage on a crappy place through rental income.”
- “I just visited Manhattan for a week, and happened to snap some real estate ads on both the Upper West and Upper East sides of the island. Compare to Vancouver. It simply doesn’t compute.”
- Ben Rabidoux In Vancouver Next Week
- “The mortgage company told me they were calling in my 40-year, 0-down mortgage. I have paid nearly sixty thousand dollars towards it, but, nearly five years in, I have yet to touch the principal.”
- ‘Vancouver City Hall: Housing Report Card 2012′; Plus Revised Version
- “My folks find themselves at 65 still owing half the value of their home and recreation property to the bank. After almost 30 years of ownership in the BPOE and a number of boom markets, they have very little to show for it.”
- “Rent for $2,200 a month or buy and have a mortgage of $4,310 per month. Why would anyone buy?”
- “They were talking about two couples they knew who had recently bought a lot and planned to each build a house on it and live as neighbours.”
- Greater Vancouver Home Builders’ Association Annual First-Time Buyer Seminar Attendance Plummets
- Mom and Pop Get It Wrong In All Markets, Time And Again
- The average British Columbian homeowner is not going to pay off their mortgage by the time they retire.
- “He’s sold all his properties except his current one, which is now for sale. He explained that the market’s currently in crash mode, worst that he’s ever seen.”
- “One of my old high school buddies finally got her mother to sell the family home in Kitsilano – sold for over $1M, monies realized after debt paid off $185K.”
- “I know someone who just declared bankruptcy because her condo was assessed at $150k and she bought it presale north of $250k in 2005 or 2006.”
- Sturdy, With Views – “Calling Froogle Scott!… Is Dr. Scott ‘In The House’?” [Not In This One, Certainly]
- “She said the market was dead in Victoria and that it would remain so for a very long time. I asked how she knew. Her answer was fascinating and should scare the pants off the real estate crowd.”
- Kits Notes – “I’m pretty sure that this is the first 3+ bedroom property of any type that I’ve seen in the 5 years I’ve lived here that is priced below $700K.”
- “A beautiful Belfast home, in the equivalent of 1st Shaughnessy, bought at their RE peak in 2007 for £3.5 million, has now sold for £800K, almost 80%-off. The market didn’t suffer any significant economic shocks. Rates & unemployment didn’t skyrocket. They didn’t build more land. Sentiment just changed and the prices fell and fell.”
- “Two family members of hers are trapped, underwater, in condos on the East Side.”
- “Interprovincial migration is not saying good things about BC’s economy.”
- Vancouver RE: Not As Expensive Provided You Don’t Think – “It’s clear that our perception of affordability has been coloured by living on a continent where housing is unusually inexpensive.”
- More Undisclosed RE Industry Insiders Publicized As Clients – “In 1995, Allan and Karin Hoegg were mortgage-free. But no more. Today their Vancouver home is a valuable source of income as they plan for full retirement.”
- Rumor that some OV units will be reduced by 20%.
- Downside Weights On The Vancouver RE Market – “One of the older guys (over 60) mention to the guy beside him that he and his wife were thinking about selling their family home, and renting, in order to get some of the money that was locked up in the house.”
- “My buddy was looking to upgrade to a house in the Coquitlam area. With 200k extra for a home, that’s half of lifetime saving between him and his wife.”
- “I was walking in the Fraser neighborhood yesterday, I noticed that the population, on average, seem to be composed of workers. I belong to the top 5 percent in terms of income. Nevertheless, I cannot afford any of the houses for sale in that neighbourhood.”
- “Vancouver is an urban resort whose value mostly resides in its real estate and not much else.”
- “Rogers Communications is expanding into RE; aiming to relaunch website; providing critical data that can help potential buyers assess the value of a property from the comfort of their home computer.”
- I’m only 50 and I can just about retire if I want to, all because of a single simple decision – “When prices rebounded to their former highs, then rocketed another 30% higher to what I considered to be totally unsustainable levels, I decided that only a fool would pass up a second opportunity to harvest such a massive non-taxable capital gain, and in 2011 I sold my place.”
- The Vacant Lot of Versailles, Richmond.
- “I don’t think that most people think things are going to crash, just that there is going to be a slight correction, but it was amazing to me how sentiment has changed, and the fact Vancouver RE is too high was just understood.”
- “The ‘investor’ who purchased our house put it up for sale two months later, in January 1981, but the bubble had burst.”
- For A City To Have That Kind Of Vacancy, It’s Like Cancer – “Downtown, the vacant unit rate is so high that it’s as though there were 35 towers at 20 storeys apiece – all empty.”
Follow vreaa on twitter
- "My neighbours, in their late 60s, just put their house on the market. They had said they would die in that house, but now they are worried… 1 day ago
VREAArchives
- May 2013
- April 2013
- March 2013
- February 2013
- January 2013
- December 2012
- November 2012
- October 2012
- September 2012
- August 2012
- July 2012
- June 2012
- May 2012
- April 2012
- March 2012
- February 2012
- January 2012
- December 2011
- November 2011
- October 2011
- September 2011
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- October 2008
- September 2008
- July 2008
- June 2008
- May 2008
- April 2008
- March 2008
- February 2008
Tags
Anecdotes Banks Bears blogs British Columbia Bubble Bulls buyers Canada Capitulation China CMHC Construction Debt Economy Employment Fear Foreign buyers Fundamentals Government Housing Interest Rates Landlords Life Media Mortgage brokers Okanagan Olympics Ownership Prediction Real Estate Realtors Relationships Rent Retirement RE_ATM sellers Sentiment Speculators Toronto US Vancouver Victoria Visual Anecdote Whistler
Ah, that would explain why I have recruiters pinging me for jobs that I haven’t done in almost a decade. Guess the market is thin. But yes, pay rate here is a joke compared to Toronto or Calgary (or Edmonton).
Hey… here’s an idea… why not pay more?
Because a good IT guy just can’t make more than the CEO. It would be… well.. unheard of.
Well yeah, that’s part of it. I had a manager once tell me that I was making the same as him was “just wrong” because he was the manager.
Was an old Nortel guy… How are they doing these days again?
To be fair, when I was contracting, I did have jobs in Vancouver where I made more money than the CEO.
But really, smaller companies can’t afford to pay much simply because the owners need to live off something too and life in Vancouver is not cheap. Another reason is that companies are used to much lower rates from the past.
Hmm, it would take a hell of an increase for an IT guy to make more than the CEO.
He can if the CEO is shit.
Have you thought maybe the reason there is no qualified people for intermediate to senior people is because well nobody is giving training the juniors people or expecting applicants to have 5 years experiences on technologies that are only 3 years only? I work in the software industry and frankly I believe this skill shortage is a load of BS. The biggest problems I see are not that there aren’t enough qualified people but rather employees wouldn’t invest any in training and developing employees and extremely narrow minded. For example, if a jobs calls for a C# developer with 5 years experience and 5 other technologies, no junior or intermediate person with less than 5 years C# experience or lack 1 or 2 of the other technologies will be considered. If someone with 8 years Java experiences applies, s/he will also be excluded because they don’t have C# never mind C# is pretty much based off Java. Similarly if it’s also unlikley the company is training the more junior employees with the required technologies if their current job does not call for it, or preparing them so they can become the much needed intermediate or senior people. Off course then the companies go crying about lack of talent and skills and how we need to have more immigrants even though there are more than enough out of work/under-employed software developers/engineers right here! Without a mentality change in employers there will always be shortage of skilled labour and you will always be constrainted in growth and competitiveness. Spend some $$ and invest in people! Geez.
Fact: Junior people are expensive. Only a large company can afford to hire them and then wait 3 to 6 months until the developer becomes productive.
Small companies don’t have the resources to spend on training and thus they need more senior people.
It is sometimes much cheaper to hire a junior guy and train him than hire an intermediate guy.
“Sometimes” is the key word and it implies risk.
Vancouver has lots of small software companies and a few mid to large sized companies.
Hiring a junior is always risky and even a good junior requires training. Large companies or even some mid-sized companies can afford to hire a limited number and train them.
However, small companies must manage their risks much more carefuly.
There are three types of small software companies / startups in Vancouver:
1) A bunch of guys with an idea, enthusiasm and NO money. This is the majority! Obviously, there is no chance for them to hire anybody unless the software developer accepts “equity”
2) Entrepreneurs who saved money for years and then invested it in their own business. These people tend to very careful about who they hire and if they hire a junior developer, they will learn the hard way how expensive it could be.
3) Companies that received angel / venture funding. To get this kind of funding, the company must have a business plan with pretty specific specs for spending. Unless the investor is stupid or has too much money, he will require a monthly or quartely breakdown of cost. Again, this will make them think twice about hiring juniors, although it’s not impossible.
The clue for junior software people is to focus on larger companies or lower their salary expectations.
However, on the higher end, there IS a serious skills shortage and it can not be easily replaced by ambitious juniors.
And this is why Vancouver’s dev industry is such a joke. You’re mitigating risk that would suffocate a start up in the bay area before they could even reach a first round of VC funding.
matt, could you elaborate? You think that startups in Bay area are using junior developers before they get VC funding? If you think so, I say that you have no idea…
Actually that is true, the training budget even in large companies like IBM has been severely slashed, not only in Vancouver but pretty much anywhere.
On the flipside, mentoring takes time and resources, as most companies purposefully “underhire” it’s not easy for people to be mentored as there aren’t enough hours in the day.
In the long run this will bite the country as a whole in the ass, until then though, they’ll ship things that aren’t required to be done locally off to far flung places like India and Brazil (as it is done in my job, PMs are in India, Server Teams in Brazil and Purchasing is in China).
I just read this article in another thread.
I here stories of professionals leaving. Are these just tales? Is this wrong?
“Some dispute claims that young families and professionals are leaving in droves, insisting the stats don’t support it. And indeed, the proportion of people aged 20 to 40 in Vancouver lines up with the rest of the province”.
Remember the “brain drain” stories from the ’90s? Low Canadian dollar and higher salaries Stateside meant local companies couldn’t compete and the “best and the brightest” left, supposedly in droves. Now that the US economy is in trouble, the Canadian dollar is strong, and wages are growing, there are still stories of people leaving.
Maybe they’re just not “into” Vancouver. I think they should see other cities for a while. It’s not Vancouver, it’s them. They need some time… for “me”.
Don’t take it the wrong way. Plenty of fish in the sea.
BTW that’s what happens when you date an addict. It’s hard to break up without breaking some plates, having your spare change stolen, and being called all sorts of shameful names. The vitriol in the anecdotes of those leaving Vancouver is interesting. I don’t know if any other city can have such an effect on an otherwise nice person.
The US is experiencing high unemployment primarily for unskilled workers. For skilled workers, unemployment is quite low, and salaries are much higher than in Canada, at least for the fields I’m familiar with. I think this is why braindrain persists; it’s not simply that the emigrants were “not into” Vancouver.
Any response to Michael’s comment below?
Also, it would be interesting to know when those proportional numbers for 20-40 year olds were obtained. From my personal experience, I’ve seen a seismic shift in attitude RE: Vancouver cost-of-living from the 2008/09 low point onwards. It seems intuitive that when prices only dip to still-very high prices and then proceed go up at a rate ~10% yoy for a couple years… people are more likely to give up and consider other options.
Actually that is not good news as the writer likes to think. Why? Because Vancouver has a “young person appeal”, so you would expect more young people here than in other parts. Two large Universities alone should increase the number of the 20 somethings in this town. That the numbers aren’t higher than in other areas is actually an indication that people ARE leaving.
I’ve got another theory. If you’re any good at development you would have started your own company or you are contracting yourself out as a mercenary. The only coders working for businesses are kids cutting their teeth at EA and worthless baby boomer cobol guys.
Hey now, that’s not very nice
I work for a business because I’m lazy, not because I’m stupid!
Yes, that’s why BC’s economy is a joke. Sloth.
I think it’s more than that. Even a startup requires employees. I know a few people involved in the startup game – some are winging it on their own capital, some on other people’s capital. Some successful, some not. Depending on where you are financially and life-wise, it may make more sense to take a steady pay cheque now instead of the possibility of large gains later.
With all of that said, Vancouver is a pretty piss-poor place for tech jobs, imo. Personally, I’m actually torn, because I keep getting pitched on moving back out east to Ottawa for better job prospects, but I’m at an age where I’m concerned that some of what I can do now, I won’t be able to in 5-10 years. On the other hand, I’m actually interested in consulting work, but at the moment, the steady pay cheque wins.
The recruiter is likely hiring both permanent and contract position, so he should be seeing all the “mercenary” coders as well.
Correct.
Good developer does not automaticaly equal good entrepreneur. Most developers I know don’t have the necessary people skills or marketing skills. There are tons of wannabe IT entrepreneurs in Vancouver and 95% never take off.
Then there is the high cost of living and low availability of capital deterring many from risk taking.
This is NOT Silicon Valley, not even Toronto…
obviously. that’s why people leave. don’t you get it yet?
The only thing I don’t get are your comments. I know that people are leaving. The examples I wrote about specificaly mentioned real estate as one of their reasons for leaving.
Perhaps you could start your own company, hire some juniors and pay them Silicon Valley level salaries. Then please report back.
Has it occured to you that your startup may be shit?
matt, you are a fucking idiot and this is the last time I ever respond to your stupid coments.
1) I have been in the industry for many years and dealt with many startups. What I am writing in the comments is general stuff about the IT industry (mostly in Vancouver)
2) My startup is successful enough. Only a naive and ignorant idiot like you would think that successful entrepreneurs do not consider risks.
3) You have obviously no idea about the industry and I think you also have a reading comprehension problem so my last sentence for you will be short and clear:
Fuck off!
[In view of Vancouver Magazine yesterday actually calling the cohort of young folks hobbled by Vancouver RE "Vancouver's Generation Fucked", we are no longer editing the 'F-word' out of posts (within reason). Reader discretion advised.
We'd still prefer for commenters to play nice. -ed.]
Three local start-ups acquired in the last few months:
http://mashable.com/2011/10/12/hootsuite-geotoko/
http://blogs.nitobi.com/andre/index.php/2011/10/03/nitobi-enters-into-acquisition-agreement-with-adobe/
http://www.techvibes.com/blog/cnn-officially-acquires-vancouver-startup-zite-2011-08-30
Three local start-ups acquired in the last few months:
http://mashable.com/2011/10/12/hootsuite-geotoko/
Hootsuite is also a local startup and trust me, they need to manage their money very carefuly. When they spend money on acquisitions, they know very well why they are doing it.
There was another link that got filtered for a local iPhone dev co that was acquired. Just pointing out that local coder/entrepreneurs are taking risks, hiring, and being rewarded for it.
Vancouver is not the ghetto it is being painted as here.
blammo, you are reading a bit too much into what is written here. I will summarize the facts for you:
1) There is a talent shortage at the high end
2) IT Salaries in Vancouver are lower than in Toronto, Ottawa or Bay Area (obviously)
3) At the same time, real estate is so expensive that together with 2, it leads to skilled people leaving Vancouver
4) There are many small/startup IT businesses here but the vast majority fails. That is a fact everywhere. However, the cost is lower in Ontario or BA while VC is more available in Ontario and BA (fact!)
bubbly,
I just referenced three (four actually) successful start-ups in Vancouver whom have succeeded very recently. You countered with four of your perceived negatives.
1. If you are a high-end talent, you are in demand in Vancouver. Positive.
2. If you are an entrepreneur, salaries are lower. Positive.
3. Vancouver is not BA or Toronto or Ottawa. It is different (and RE is expensive). Agree.
4. Costs are lower for talent but higher for entrepreneurs. Neutral.
5. VC money is definitely more available in BA.
So, go to BA. Or don’t. But focus on the strengths of Vancouver not the weakness. Local real estate prices are not holding you back.
blammo, where did I say that those things are all negatives? That is your own bias. As I said before, you are reading a bit too much into what is written here. I actually agree with your 4 point assessment.
http://blogs.nitobi.com/andre/index.php/2011/10/03/nitobi-enters-into-acquisition-agreement-with-adobe/
http://www.techvibes.com/blog/cnn-officially-acquires-vancouver-startup-zite-2011-08-30
bullshit. I’m not old and I work for a big corp because it’s stable, they pay well, and I get to make connections with smart technical people.
This does not suprize me at all I am on the other side of this. If I am to take a full time position rather than doing consulting I would have to take a such a huge pay cut that I won’t do it. With the IT salaries offered in Vancouver you will not make ends meet if you have a family.
hear hear. Salaries in this town are abysmally low, which is why all the good devs are leaving.
i heard the consulting side is really busy right now.
Ill try applying for consulting jobs before i leave but Im also applying in calgary and seattle so van will probably come up short…
Mark Zuckerberg and Vancouver housing.
“Others speculated he is here to talk to a local video game company about perhaps creating an online video game store on Facebook similar to the recently launched EA Online Store.
Or, could he be buying a reclusive property in Vancouver’s west side?”
I thought he was a renter.
Best place on earth.
Forgot the link
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/steve-jobs/Facebook+Mark+Zuckerberg+takes+bite+Vancouver+speculation+swirls/5546891/story.html
Only the Sun would publish that story on Zuckerberg and claim he could be buying property here. He rented for years and only recently bought a house in Palo Alto (probably for a lot cheaper than the dumps you get in Vancouver)
We are simply seeing the pendulum swing back in favor of local independent production.
The global outsourcing movement of the past couple of decades has simply depleted (consumed) its supply of willing (and now unwilling) slaves.
Serves them right for trying to live in the distant and ugly past. The glory days of slave owners were centuries ago. Even its roots are finally dying.
The new kids are not dummies. They are the future. Follow them.
lol yes they are, don’t follow anybody