Tanya Beja, reporter: “Mike and Elaine Garland want their son Nicholas to grow up with the same opportunities they did: a house, a backyard, maybe a dog, but when they look at the cost of real estate, they know their options are limited.”
Elaine Garland: “Knowing that our dollar didn’t go very far in this city… kinda was disappointing for me, because I grew up in this city, I was a Burnaby girl.”
Beja: “So the ‘Burnaby-girl’ and her husband are heading East, getting ready to move to Newfoundland, where a home costs half of what they paid here.”
Mike Garland: “Out here you feel like you’re struggling, every week, trying to pay the bills, pay your mortgage, and the commute. You never think you’re getting ahead.”
Beja: “The Garlands have no doubts that a new life in Newfoundland will allow them more time with their son, and more money for his education and activities like hockey.”
Mike Garland: “I think it’s a better choice to raise a family… you’re not putting all your money into the house itself.”
—
Beja: “Holly and Rob Williams know what it’s like to struggle: Thousands of dollars in debt, they want to start a family and own a home, something they say thay can only do by moving to Ottawa.”
Holly Williams: “We don’t want to be house-poor, and I do believe, that if we stayed, we would end up being house-poor.”
Rob Williams: “… looking forward to the next step in life, which is going to be children, which is going to be more expensive… the option is clear, it’s very clear, what has to be done.”
—
Beja: “For the first time in more than a decade, more people have left BC this year than the number moving here from other provinces.”
Feras Elkhalil, head of a tech recruiting firm: “In the past, we’ve been known to call across the nation, just to get that good, specialized talent into Vancouver, and it has been easier, to sell a lifestyle and temperature change, … but that’s gone.”
Beja: “BC prides itself on its livability and lifestyle, but are we selling a bill-of-goods? … Ours is the most expensive in the country, costing more than eleven times the median income.”
“But our income is at the bottom of the list, Vancouverites make less than people living in places like Regina and Saskatoon.”
“If young people continue to leave, it could spell trouble for our economy.”
- above excerpts from Global TV, 3 Oct 2011.
Kudos, on this occasion, to Global TV and to Tanya Beja, for plainly stating aspects of the effects of housing prices.
The montage of clips from the ‘Best Place On Earth’ BC advert interspersed with voice-over questions about housing is the closest Global has come to asking real journalistic questions about our RE.
It’d be even better if Global went further, and joined some of the dots:
Given the prices and incomes, we’re experiencing a ‘speculative mania’ in housing prices, aren’t we?
And, given the effects on migration that they cite, and given that prices have been driven up by bubble-dynamics, are prices sustainable?
- vreaa
Way to go Tanya! We hope the blogosphere has helped you out in its own quirky way.
It probably wasn’t Beja’s intention, but pieces like this that fail to address the second half of the overall story – the speculation by average citizens that is being fueled by an explosion in personal debt – pretty much act as race baiting.
Many family and friends living in the Lower Mainland might agree that the current circumstances are problematic, but many of these same people will also IMMEDIATELY attribute the situation to wealthy foreigners/ immigrants.
I’m curious about one thing: why do these people have to leave BC to find affordable housing (as the article implies)? Aren’t there plenty of towns in BC where it is cheaper to live than Vancouver?
Might depend on profession?
Also: how cheap is cheap? If they moved to St. John’s – population ~190k, so only places in BC that are larger are Lower Mainland and Victoria – it looks like the average house is in the 250k-300k range. Once the decision to move away from what you’ve thought of as home is made – and it’s made with the primary focus being the financial wellbeing of your family – you might as well put a lot of options on the table, no?
Yes, BC has many towns where housing is more affordable, but many careers are viable only in larger cities. For example, say you’re a video game developer at EA in Burnaby and you decide the GVRD is too expensive. Where could you move next? Montreal, Toronto, London are viable choices. Prince George and Osoyoos are not.
Just hammered out a post at VCI echoing your thoughts re the Global thing. I was in the midst of talking to Tanya as the spot aired, so I didn’t see it until I’d viewed it online.
I have mad respect for what she’s done thus far. Posting here looking for people who’ve tossed off the shackles of home ownership in favor of renting(the reason I contacted her). Filing a story in a segment quite possibly sponsored by Re/Max that doesn’t tow the RE industry line. Undoubtedly takes some guts.
This spot was part of a series on the cost of living (not just housing) in BC. Where it goes from here is anyone’s guess. But hey, this was a good – and a surprisingly realistic – start. Let’s hope it continues in the same vein.
Robert: Sure there are. The strange thing is: People need jobs. I imagine many people who can’t hack the Vancouver-area insanity toss around the idea of moving to, say, Grand Forks. But they ultimately decide Calgary or Ottawa or Hamilton of Halifax is a better idea because they can acutally make a living there.
I actually know someone who moved to Grand Forks from Vancouver (what were they thinking??). They have a child and have found it disappointing that there are no good summer or after-school programs for the kid (apparently if your kid isn’t into sports there isn’t much else, no art or science programs, limited music programs). Also the public pool had terrible hours this summer (closed on weekends!), then was closed entirely for 6 weeks for maintenance. There’s a lot to be said for living in a bigger city where there are more amenities.
affordability is a 45 minute drive away, not thousands of miles. No need to break up your family and social circle.
But that ‘affordability’ compares very poorly with that attainable in other cities in Canada, and even worse with that attainable in the US, for that same individual/family. Thus the pressure to move away.
Rollie pitches living in the Lower Mainland:
“Did you and your spouse work your butts off to secure professional jobs and earn good money? Well here in the Lower Mainland – where median detached house prices are a double digit multiple of median salaries – you can build the great life you’ve been working so hard for. Remember: affordability is only a 45 minute commute away*. Also, we have mountains.”
*Please note: affordable commute is 45 minutes in each direction; 10% of your waking hours will be spent in your car. Also, don’t believe people from other cities when they tell you what your same salary will allow you to have there. I’m pretty sure they’re lying. And it’s probably, like, really cold there.
Seriously – no it’s not. Especially when the cost of transportation is figured in.
Living 45 minutes away will break your social circle. I know from experience with friends I never see any more. I’m not spending my time to drive my family out 45 minutes on a weekend to see them, and they aren’t doing the reverse. Family, on the other hand, will do that more often.
When I lived in Toronto a good friend there moved to Oshawa. I’ve seen him 3 or 4 times since he moved, and that was in 1988. For most people, their social circle (ex family) is a 5 or 10 minute drive away max. Moving from Kerrisdale to Langley is like living on a different planet – in more ways than one.
45 minutes will bust up even the most tight-knit social circle in a hurry. That’s 1.5 hours (on a good day) of dead time just to see someone. Hmm, lets see, how about, uhm, next weekend? And possibly just as much, or even more, every single day to get to work.
Smaller towns are great, but most jobs require you to be in a major city. You can move to Toronto and reduce your housing costs by 1/3 for similar or better job opportunities. To Calgary or Montreal or Ottawa for 1/2 the costs. To Edmonton or St John or Regina for a 2/3 or more reduction in costs. And depending on your profession, you might also be better off professionally.
have you ever driven commuted to work in Toronto, or Calgary? It’ll take you 45 minutes from any affordable area to downtown, same as Vancouver.
Really? Calgary?
Anybody with actual Calgary experience want to chime in?
How far from a $800K SFH to downtown in Calgary vs Vancouver?
An $800k SFH in Calgary would be a pleasant walk to the ‘core’. Mind you, there are very few $800k houses in Calgary. A nice house in a good neighborhood, 45 minutes by train to the core, will cost about $500k.
Nonsense. You can easily buy a detached house in Cabbagetown for under $1m and this is a 10-minute bike ride from Bay street.
Wife and I lived in Calgary, in this neighbourhood. Walk to two grocery stores, london drugs, etc. It was good. The drive to the downtown core is 25 minutes. Not saying this particular house is a good deal, but they’re all in the 300′s.
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11100711&PidKey=1158642981
For a comparable house in the lower mainland, you are looking in Mission. The drive to downtown is 2 hours. Most sane people would choose the West Coast Express instead. That’s 90 minutes and $21 for a return fare, or $300 for a monthly pass.
There are a lot of things about Vancouver that simply don’t work. Transportation is by far the largest one, the cost of property is #2, and wages are #3, IMO.
So, Rollie, retraction?
There are plenty of affordable houses in Toronto within a 25-30 min drive of the downtown core.
HI Rollie I have commuted for several years to downtown toronto. If you live near a go train station its pretty easy to get downtown, I did that for a few years and managed to find the 45 minute ride in and ride back to be very productive, I mostly read lots of non fiction books going back and forth. In Vancouver, you don’t have 45 minutes on the equivalent of the go train which has a reasonable schedule.
I agree with you that driving around toronto in Morning traffic is total insanity I have not done morning commutes from vancouver burbs so I don’t know if that is any better. Getting away from such things as the toronto traffic was one of the benefits of coming to Vancouver, however the crazy cost of living in BC really is not worth it, along with the lack of a real economy. I am moving back to Toronto in the Spring of 2012 for the following reasons.
1) Housing is way too expensive here, I am not willing to become a totally debt slave to buy a house.
2) Cost of living in Vancouver is too high relative to rest of Canada without a sufficient benefit. I would be okay with a 5 to 10% extra cost of living but it feels to me be way past that to live in Vancouver.
3) YVR sucks to fly from to USA and Eastern Canada. I do a lot of flying for work and YVR is a regional airport. If Vancouver was the best place on earth then here should be direct flights everywhere.
I forgot to mention that a 45 minute commute to toronto gets you more house than you can get in Vancouver with such a commute.
Again, you (Rollie) don’t know what you’re talking about. First off, commuting from Langley took 2 hours of my life every bloody day.
Now I commute THROUGH the downtown Calgary core from one quadrant of the city to another – door to door it’s 15 minutes and 30 minutes 6 times a year because of bad weather. And I do not consider 400K unaffordable for inner city. Or you can choose to commute for an hour if you want to live on an acreage or K-country or Canmore for that matter.
I’m so tired of your ignorance in almost everything. Please go somewhere else to get educated.
Agree with Gord and others that the report didn’t really delve into the root causes of unaffordable housing and the uphill battle the City has chosen to take by concentrating on subsidies instead. Even the seconds-long clip with Jeff Meggs didn’t offer much solace, not least because I don’t have much faith in civic officials to state the actual problem and what they can, and are willing to, do about it.
Fact is that telling owners that prices are too high because they drank the Kool Aid and said prices will inevitably crash doesn’t get votes. Always stay positive, say the leadership books. Nobody likes a loser!
There is room in the upcoming civic race for a guy/gal who tells it like it is. A maverick, if you will. My sense is if a councilor, current or wanting, starts spouting off about speculation, cheap credit, low property taxes, and dysfunctional zoning regulations playing into the hands of a property developer Illuminati who fund City activities through permit applications with long-term costs and consequences, that may garner some support from the half of the populace who happen to rent, and perhaps even the half whose children are priced out and moving. For Vancouver to be a sustainable city it needs to control real estate speculation and focus its populace’s activities to more productive means, and that does NOT mean being a landlord for a house with two semi-legal basement suites.
If a councilor is interested in learning more, read local real estate blogs or contact one of the blogs’ owners/editors for more candid opinions. From what I’ve seen, several posters here “get it”. Shame that their voices are not being taken seriously on the campaign docket, there’s a real opportunity to get some votes there with some strategic policy changes. Again, it would probably require a maverick to do it, not a whole slate.
I’d vote for you. =)
My thoughts, too.
How about it, jesse?
[Remember, if you're going to be a politician, that you have to start by acting exceedingly modest, denying that you have any interest in running for 'x', forcing supporters to increase the volume of their cries for your campaign.]
Thanks for your support. Unfortunately I have a face that’s made for blogging. I mean really would you vote for a digitized spirograph?
[Excellent start, especially the coy modesty.]
C’mon jesse! We need a voice like yours on Council.
Please reconsider.
I will support a candidate who addresses the issues and root causes of Vancouver’s housing bubble. Sorry, can’t run, need to maintain my moral compass for future use.
Unfortunately I have a face that’s made for blogging.
LMAO!!!
Unfortunately, people would rather have a good looking moron instead of a smart ugly person. That says a lot of average people’s depth…
Alternative plan: Jesse can be our Rahm Emanuel, who lurked behind the curtain and decided all the policies. PaulB (http://www.laurenandpaul.ca/) can be his front man.
Me too.
Isn’t a lack of job creation in BC outside of Vancouver part of the problem?
In Ontario (where I live) the Greater Toronto area has the most expensive real estate in the province and it probably always will. But there are other cities in Ontario that are nice places to live in and where there are economic opportunities.
Sorry to disappoint, but my wife and I live in Calgary (900K home) which is similar to living on the westside of Vancouver where our home would be 2.5 million. We are 10-15 minutes out of downtown, but actually do not work downtown, but 5 minutes away. Our lot size( 75 x 130) is also much larger than most vancouver lot sizes. It was more about having a better career here in Calgary than Vancouver. As vancouver prices rose like crazy, we just decided to stay here.
Excellent comment regarding the Global piece, at vancouvercondo.info by ‘anon2′ [October 4th, 2011 at 9:19 am]:
“I loved that they used those ‘gotta be here’ ads that featured celebrities born in BC who moved away for better opportunity. Michael J. Fox, Ryan Reynolds, Kim Cattrall, and Steve Nash all live in the US. Some of them were just shot in front of a green screen – they didn’t even bother to come back to BC to film the commercial.”
sorry Jeff,
I lived in Cabbagetown and went to school downtown. This was at least 30 minute commute daily via public transportation. Didn’t do it by bike but you gotta be steroid pumped Armstrong to do it in under 15 cycling.
The distance from Cabbagetown to UofT is 3.1km. (Ryerson is even closer.) Here’s a nice duplex in Cabbagetown for $750k: http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11021422
In contrast, the distance from 10th and Blanca to UBC is 3.6km. The only properties in that area under $1.5m in that area are condos.
I don’t think you’ll find much sympathy here if a 3km commute was too grueling for you.
“I forgot to mention that a 45 minute commute to toronto gets you more house than you can get in Vancouver with such a commute”
as it should ams.
No-one in their right mind would choose Toronto over Vancouver if all things were equal.
Hey, are you the same ‘Rollie’ who, over on the ‘Guerrilla Ad’ thread, just now quoted Robert Kiyosaki [Rich Dad believed, “My house is a liability, and if your house is your largest investment, you’re in trouble”] as an example of “how to think”?
Every time someone cites Rich Dad, God kills a kitten.
[HaHaHaHaHa... - God.]
Been there done that. We moved to the middle east 4 years back and saved over half a mill (we always said you got to get out {of Van} before you can get in {to Van RE}). We’re now back in Van, renting and certainly not looking to buy now. We can weather the bubble storm until RE becomes realistic.
If things don’t soften in a couple of years, we will pick up and head off once more. Double whammy !
What I have always seen as the saddest outcome of the housing bubble in Vancouver, Toronto and elsewhere is how so many young people have sacrificed making families in favour of mortgage debt.
They are not having children. Quite simply, kids are not affordable to them anymore. So it seems a little tragic to be nesting when an empty brood is all the dividend you get for your life efforts.
I have not yet seen young couples feeling resentful yet but it is clear to me they have been cheated by a system gone wrong. Perhaps the media will explore this story in the future. We are seeing an inverse baby boom at the same time Boomers are heading for retirement. Who’s kids will pick up the slack in twenty years time?
This credit bubble has become a demographic disaster.
everyone I know that owns a home (not condo) has a family. In contrast to your comment, they all bought homes because of their growing family not in place of it.
I do know lots who delayed having a family until they could afford the house with yard, but I don’t know anyone who chose a house over a family.
Q: Metro Vancouver is recognized as a high cost housing market – what implications does this challenge have for you/your household in terms of the choices that are/were available?
A: May have to limit the size of planned family.
Q: If you were advising a potential new recruit to UBC, what type of housing advice would you provide?
A: Plan your family size carefully as larger families are particularly challenged in this market.
From UBC Staff & Faculty Housing Demand Study, page 80-81.
https://vreaa.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/ubc-staff-and-faculty-housing-demand-study-inability-to-settle-in-vancouver-may-lead-me-to-leave-ubc-despite-being-ranked-as-top-faculty-both-in-terms-of-teaching-and-research/
Jeff, oh my, no fun city indeed. Remember: J Hannibal Smith always went through the front door with a giant stogie. It’s what the “A Team” was known for.
Then you need to get out more Sugarrays. There is no question that the same demographic group that has been most involved in the first time home buyers market are also those in their prime years for creating families.
That is the 25 to 35 age group. We know without question the debt burden they carry on average (it is found in a little known field called statistics, friend) and we also know their income levels, the typical home cost for entrants and the down payment that is usually committed.
Thus we can conclude without doing even a single interview the real prospects for that cash strapped group who imagined a family in their near future. It is dismal to non existent. Add it up yourself.
This development has only really transpired over the past thirty six months or less as home values shot well above reasonable levels. So while you may indeed know families who bought homes in the past, can you also tell me you know of first time home buyers during the past year that still see children in the future?
And how much easier will it get as we enter a recession, jobs disappear and housing prices decline while debt remains? Like I said, this has been a disaster for a generation. We did not arrive at 70% home ownership rates in this country without having harvested almost all the eligible buyers across the country. We used the energy of this countries youth to save us all from the fate that has befallen most of the Western democracies and we used their credit worthiness to buy us all more time.
And now, it is our young adults who are paying the heaviest price of this credit bubble as they flounder in debt and have sacrificed their future families for bricks and mortar, stainless and granite.
What a rotten deal for them.
Family size is not smaller in Vancouver.
avg family size by municipality,
Vancouver 2.6
Edmonton 2.5
Calgary 2.6
Toronto 2.8
Ottawa 2.5
Montreal 2.3
Winnipeg 2.4
“Family size is not smaller in Vancouver.”……….
Not yet Sugar. You are missing the point though. Your stats are historical and represent prior years. A “family” from that perspective can be represented by any age of children from infants to age eighteen or more. Those family groups will also represent “normal” times that came before the current housing bubble and so the comparison is not valid.
Hardly a reasonable way to judge what is currently taking place.
The credit bubble is current and the facts will not be fully reflected until well into the next few years. As you well know, the real price discord in Vancouver and much of the country has only taken place since interest rates were dropped to historical lows and housing prices shot up to excessive levels. That has all happened in just the past three years or less.
I think the Statistics Canada data that is soon to come out will clearly reflect family formation during the critical past twelve and twenty four months. You will then have your first clue as to how overpriced home-ownership costs have negatively impacted on the formation of new families in your region.
Watch for it.
I always wondered why so few of my Vancouver office colleagues were married with kids. The office demographic consisted of single moms, divorcees, common-law gay couples, singles, and DINKs with very few married with kids. Definitely not a family friendly place.
All I know and hear from friends who live in the valley or white rock is that it is anywhere from 40-60 minutes during rush hour each way. Our commute in Calgary is 10-15 minutes and that gives us a house that is worth 750-800K. (A nice reno’d house with large yard etc) What would a house cost in Vancouver 10-15 minutes from downtown? It would probably be at least 2 million for something decent. Basically Canmore is the same distance to Calgary as Abbotsford/chilliwack is to Vancouver. People in Calgary would not even consider that. There would be little traffic though if you did commute from Canmore, whereas from Abbotsford is bumper to bumper traffic.
if I had a home in Calgary worth 800K I’d have sold it and bought lower mainland faster than you can say “minus 30″
How would you afford to pay the taxes if you were dependent on the Vancouver job market for your income? Also, you’d be moving from a palace to an East Van crack shack.
that’s what i like to hear from Vancouverites that just don’t see the difference in value between living East Van and the premium areas of Calgary for a fraction of the cost. I love living the Van westside life for a fifth the cost (including our “winter” home in Arizona)
Count us as another couple who left because of house prices. We’ve been on Vancouver Island for a month now, in a city where house prices are less than half of North Van and there are lots of properties for sale. In North Van we could afford an old townhouse and here we can build a house with an ocean and mountain view. The city we are in has all the outdoor recreation that North Van has (biking, skiing, sailing) and it is all cheaper and more accessible. I do miss the great city amenities though, like multiple pools with varying schedules, the public seawall and parks, and being able to walk to shopping. I don’t miss the traffic, everybody being in a hurry, and living in cramped quarters. Luckily our incomes and jobs here are the same as in the city, although the risk is higher (if I lost my job it would be tough to find another here). Even so, the cost of living is low enough that we wouldn’t have to both be working anyway.
to “Sugarrays” – what could I get for 800K in Vancouver? def. not a sfh. I am sorry, but I don’t want to live in the burbs. Yes we could get a nice house in white rock, port moody or something. Problem is also no jobs in our fields right now and the pay is way lower in Vancouver.
BTW: ‘Sugarrays’ = ‘Chaz’
What is it with bulls and multiple handles?
There are jobs outside of Vancouver. My husband and I moved to Fort Nelson in January. We easily make double what we did in Vancouver. Bought a 2600sf home on a 75′ by 200′ property for 300k. Everyone around here can’t believe how much we paid for it, but coming from Vancouver it felt like a steal to us. Yes, it does get cold up here in Northern BC in the winter. But it is also sunny. We have the northern lights. At night the sky is breathtaking and the stars seem so close. The wildlife is spectacular. In the summer we have extra long days…still daylight at 11pm, just in case you wanted to squeeze in a round of golf after dinner. The summer days can get hot…we had some 28-30 degree days this summer. The extra hours of daylight also give us a fantastic growing season just in case you like to garden.
The community is great for kids. I was shocked at how many young mothers are in town, but when you concider that the average home up here costs 150k, and that the average job pays 20 bucks an hour (without an education) you don’t need to wait to afford a family.
airedales,
in my office there’s a baby boom happening. This is a Vancouver office. By my estimation there are 19 co-workers of child bearing age and 13 have kids under 5, and most have more than one kid
All Asian as well I’d presume?
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