“I have been asking myself what would make Vancouver a better place to live, work and play? Lately I find myself overwhelmed by stories of young(ish) professionals who are leaving the city – often in their thirties, driven by the desire to purchase a home that is affordable for them and their families. They are grantmakers, green building specialists, filmmakers, and socially progressive bankers. All smart, caring folks, emerging in their respective fields. All are assets to Vancouver.
Mostly they love the city but can’t afford to live here, even working at good jobs and earning good incomes. Sadly, the lowest rung on the home ownership ladder is too big a step. Or with children, the lowest rung (typically the one bedroom apartment) is not workable. I wonder, is this cohort the ‘lost generation’ – talented, skilled, thoughtful people that are bidding adieu to the city, and taking with them their energy, skills and unique potential contributions.”
- Heather Tremain, ‘What would make Vancouver a better place to live?’, The Vancouver Observer, 8 July 2011
In the rest of the post, Heather Tremain, discusses affordable or ‘attainable’ housing. The most important factor in understanding Vancouver’s RE predicament is not recognized: The speculative mania in RE prices. This is a giant bubble, folks. To ignore that makes the task of trying to ‘solve’ the problems of affordable housing completely meaningless.
A collapse in RE prices will change the landscape profoundly. The process won’t be painless, but in the end, it’ll be better for the city. – vreaa
bring it on!
the schadenfreude, that is.
Christ. How many user names do you have Lost Soul?
Yesterday I tried to point out that the “home ownership ladder” does not exist when you have 20% annual increases in property values. I did a bad job, but I think space889 explained it better:
http://vreaa.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/only-one-ubc-employee-can-afford-to-own-a-westside-home/#comment-13025
For some “the lowest rung on the home ownership ladder is too big a step”. But even if they can make that step, the lowest rung is the only step they will ever get to make.
and if they bought at a very high price and the bottom falls out, that rung basically becomes a noose – or at least an albatross.
To take a different stand, how come this exodus of young people is not happening in other big cities during a property bubble? Toronto has a bubble but people are moving to neighboring city to live and still work in Toronto rather than leaving Toronto permenantly. Calgary has big house runup in 2000 to 2006 and still draw a lot of people for work. Same with a lot of US cities like NY, SanDiego, LA, Chicago, etc. People moved to suburbs to live but still worked in the city.
Why do we hear so many people leaving Vancouver for good?
I think the issue is more than just housing prices. Granted if housing prices returned to 2000 level, it would make things better. However the underlying issue is not resolved. Mainly that Vancouver just doesn’t have a vibrant growing industry outside of tourism, films (used anyways), housing and resource, and there doesn’t seem to be a desire to have/grow one. I don’t know why but there just doesn’t seem to be a lot of entrepreneurial spirit here outside of a few traditional old economy industries like mall shops, restaurants, and whatnot. I think that’s more of a problem to the city long term than a RE bubble.
the problem is obviously the white people!
On a relative basis, both Calgary and Toronto are “cheap” compared to Vancouver and people there have higher incomes on average.
“I think the issue is more than just housing prices. Granted if housing prices returned to 2000 level, it would make things better. However the underlying issue is not resolved. Mainly that Vancouver just doesn’t have a vibrant growing industry outside of tourism, films (used anyways), housing and resource, and there doesn’t seem to be a desire to have/grow one. I don’t know why but there just doesn’t seem to be a lot of entrepreneurial spirit here outside of a few traditional old economy industries like mall shops, restaurants, and whatnot. I think that’s more of a problem to the city long term than a RE bubble.”
You want a reason? look, nobody likes a band of rich [c word! -ed.] moving into their backyards, frontyards, and sideyards. Rich and poor do not, cannot mix socially, comfortably. Demonstrated many times over. Different expectations, rules, and worldviews. Add to this wealth differential a substantial culture difference and the natural [c word]-yness of the very wealthy, and are you left with a nice environment people want to live in? I know everybody gets touchy about race here; that has fuck-all to do with it. The rich are [c word (plural) -ed.]. Nuff said.
re: [c word. -ed], lol
‘monied interlopers’
lol I like your euphemism better. I bet poor VREAA ed has to go through and square bracket my exuberance. I choose this euphemism with your permission to replace my so, pretty, vaCant phrasing.
after the crash, you can add ‘carpetbaggers’
see, history is fun!
I think you will find the cunning stunts which are going on are an apt way to describe things.
What kind of tree was it?
Uhm…I think the lack of innovations and industry has always been a problem as long as I have been here. So I’m not too sure exactly how this is really a influx of rich money, not too mention we had anedotes of investor immigrants who actually want to invest in a business but end up leaving because they can’t find any.
Also I believe money is color blind to race and there are probably still more rich locals/white than there are rich yellows??
I do remember a poll taken during the height of HK immigration and start of satellite family where a majority of female white highschool students polled said their goal is to marry a rich HK kid and never have to work. Wonder if the same poll would result in a response of marry rich kid from rich mainland family who is 75% likely to got the money from bribes, corruption, shady dealings, possible deportation, etc.
That would be fun.
it’s funny that you mention that there are more rich whites than rich asians,
because it’s true.
but they way the triumphalist/expansionist/colonialist “facing east on white country” types talk online, you’d think it was the opposite.
one word:
JIMMY.
“Why do we hear so many people leaving Vancouver for good?”
Putting aside real estate costs (*gasp*), maybe another part of the equation is that pay is simply lower here relative to other cities in Canada (never mind American cities). Based on personal experience – and discussion with folks working in other fields – it’s pretty clear there are often more $ to be made doing the same jobs in places like Calgary, Toronto, etc. So even if real estate prices were equal across the country (ha!), living costs would STILL take a bigger chunk of your pay than elsewhere.
I’ve always had it explained to me that the lower wages of the lower mainland are a reflection of the fact that it’s not tough to recruit people to live here; that people take less to work in Vancouver because it’s desirable. Maybe. BUT WHAT IF ENTREPRENEURS AND THE TYPES OF FOLKS WHO WORK IN THE INDUSTRIES VANCOUVER LACKS ARE PEOPLE MOTIVATED BY DIFFERENT THINGS? Is it really a stretch to believe that folks motivated in business might make the bottom line – income – their #1 priority? Couldn’t their mental calculus maybe be identifying a further $10-30k (or more) in salary as a different path to a great “lifestyle”? Might not the “Vancouver premium” salary deduction work mostly to attract folks looking for a relatively stable long-term gig (instead of “go getter” industry drivers)? “Lotus land” clichés bugs me, but I don’t think it’s off-base to characterize many folks in BC as RELATIVELY laid back. Might that not explain some things?
Question though, if you are an entreprenuer, why wouldn’t you want to start a business in a place where it has nice weather relative to other parts of Canada and can pay lower salary to your employees than you would elsewhere? That would seem like a plus for Vancouver rather than a minus?
Though I do get the argument for IT at least that the action and place to be is Silicon Valley. But other industries?? It just seems people here just really lack ambition to go big for some reason. Is it that much harder here to succeed? I would have thought we are well situation to be an industry hub but reality is just different.
“Question though, if you are an entreprenuer, why wouldn’t you want to start a business in a place where it has nice weather relative to other parts of Canada and can pay lower salary to your employees than you would elsewhere?”
How are the rents? or costs for other materials?
Some people do move to Vancouver. Didn’t microsoft open an office there?
You nailed it. Most young people in Vancouver see the old school entrepreneurial formula to be a pipe dream — The ladder is simply to high to climb. Therefore, they either resort to crime to finance their lifestyle, or simply give up and work for min wage at the local watering hole.
Lack of middle class = stifling of inovation and functioning small businesses.
Jobs. It’s the salary relative to housing prices. For example, Chicago is much more affordable then Vancouver — as a city it costs less and workers get higher salaries.
Vancouver has lower relative salaries in tech, finance, ect.
AND CHICAGO HAS THE CUBS
DO WANT
My beloved Cubbies! Can’t have!
i need to make a pilgrimage – i also need to get to safeco before ichiro retires or goes to the yankees
i should mention, i was at edgar martinez’ last game, same game that ichiro got 3 hits to set the record for hits in a season at 262 – it was awesome. packed house, really great experience. i was sad to see the sheer numbers of obese people though. really out of control.
isn’t being fat a waste of money? (and a waste of your life?)
vancouver = fat city (but only in the head, a lot of us are eating potatoes)
Two reasons come to mind:
1. Anything that remotely would allow for a sensible commute here in the lower mainland is completely “out of reach” price wise. So moving “one town over” isn’t really an option.
2. Even with the bubbles in Toronto or Calgary the INCOME is still higher and that offsets some of their bubbles.
Vancouver is literally “at the end of the world” as far as most careers go.
a couple of points if you’re trading up right now:
- the growth in equity means your downpayment is now much much larger than for your first purchase
- interest payments are lower right now than say 5 years ago
Let’s for the fun of it add to your list that
- You will have more total debt compared to when prices were lower, regardless of your equity gains.
Ask how if you aren’t sure.
Another beautiful summer day in The Best Place on Earth™. I hope I don’t get rain burn today. (not joking: http://on.today.com/phk3Hn)
iodine 131 is no biggie
not compared to strontium 90 and cesium 137, anyways
did you know that the burning of coal is actually responsible for an enormous amount of radiation being dumped in the atmosphere? (and by extension, all over the world) i did not know this. makes ‘clean coal’ sound even more absurd – then you look over the ocean….(or over the border)
The comments in the Observer are revealing.
The first comment from “Ross” talks about the “conflict of interest” between homeowners and those who need affordable housing. Heather responds to that by assuring Ross values of market homes would still be preserved.
This is typical of Vancouver progressives. They feel bad that people can’t afford their homes, but they are personally invested in the real estate market, so can’t countenance the easiest way for the market to become affordable again. It’s why progressive politicians like Vision and the NDP can’t promote policies which keep housing prices low.
i don’t know why we don’t seem to be able to have any viable third parties in bc or the city – it’s hysterical to watch us scurry like rats in a cage to either side.
i am beyond disillusioned.
“can’t afford to live here”
not live, OWN. Gah people get it wrong so often. Nobody has the right to own. Sorry if that sounds “rusty” but it’s the truth.
Agree with bubbly and space for the reasons they have given: the “property ladder” meme is one of the most misused talking points, wrought more dangerous because it’s perpetrated by FTBs’ friends and families.
I wasn’t really discussing the property ladder. It’s such a cliche, it’s not worth talking .
You are correct, nobody has a right to own. However, that is not really what rusty would say. According to Rusty and the average RE bull, it’s your *obligation* to buy. This kind of twisted thinking and the segregation between “owners” (who are often just indebted obnoxious serfs) and renters are among the worst side effects of this bubble.
obligation!
how dare you point out the flaws in logic of your RE industry betters??
heresy! blasphemer!
sure people don’t have the right to own, but people have a right to fair economic policies and transparent markets that are not manipulated by the government.
Since government policy is contributing to the housing problems, I feel that my rights to a good government are being trampled on, with my own tax money.
“people have a right to fair economic policies and transparent markets that are not manipulated by the government.”
Where is that written? I think as a matter of good policy people should have safe and adequate access to shelter. I don’t even see a guarantee of land ownership in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
@jesse the reason that I argue that it is a right even though it is not in the Charter of rights is that I am paying over 50% of my income to the government in the various income taxes, sales taxes, fees … etc and that money that I am paying to the government is being used to distort the markets.
My belief is that if I am paying for it I get a say and I have a right to expect something in return something that is not detrimental to me.
Also since it is no longer practical to for a person to live in a semi independent way ie grow your own food, … etc the way people lived about 200 years ago when things where much more local and the division of labor in society was not as refined as it is today.
Everyone alive today is forced to specialize and in order to exist in the society we have you must be able to be effective in the economic arena and when the market place is so twisted and distorted through government policy that we have the economic equivalent of attack on personal liberties which a few centuries ago were not considered rights.
So that is why I consider transparent and effective markets a right.
Housing prices aside, we moved 8 years ago because of jobs- actually getting them in our fields and a bonus of making more money than what the jobs paid in vancouver. Why go to university and get a specialized degree like law, medicine or education and then not be able to use it in Vancouver??
’cause it’s the best place on earth.
that’s past tense for a lot of us.
“However the underlying issue is not resolved. Mainly that Vancouver just doesn’t have a vibrant growing industry outside of tourism, films (used anyways), housing and resource, and there doesn’t seem to be a desire to have/grow one”.
I guess you gotta know where to look:
“The City of London’s global financial index ranks Vancouver among the top 25 global financial centres and in the top 10 for transnational finance. Vancouver’s financial services emerged to support resource development, which explains why 800 global mining companies are based here. Today, Vancouver’s financial services operate in global markets. Canada’s biggest banks have important operations in Vancouver, including the Canadian headquarters of one of the world’s biggest, London’s HSBC. The Vancouver Economic Development Commission says Vancouver performs particularly well in banking, credit unions, international financial transactions and venture capital investment is developing an important niche in international treasury and financial functions.”
“Vancouver ranks 580th in the world for city population, yet its port ranks 50th and is the most diversified in North America. Trade with 160 world economies flows through Vancouver, 95 per cent of it serving Canada’s import-export markets. The port is the largest in Canada, in the Pacific Northwest and, in terms of total tonnage, on the west coast of North America. In terms of container traffic, it ranks fifth for North America.
http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/Column+Does+Vancouver+match+criteria+world+class/5055406/story.html?id=5055406
Re Mining: Yes, there are 800+ companies here, usually small offices with a few people. The real work is done where the minerals actually are so the benefit to Vancouver is limited.
Financial institutions? They may have some trading desks here etc. but compared to what is going on in Toronto it’s a joke.
Lastly, one of the “top 25 global financial centres”? So where exactly does that put Vancouver? I am pretty sure that in Canada at least Toronto is ahead in the rankings so is Calgary, heck even Montreal is potentially ahead of Vancouver in that ranking. Besides, without knowing their criteria that ranking is completely useless.
Yes, lots of mining companies, but I dare someone to look at the financial statements of these companies. Many have never actually earned a dime, ever! They just incur huge losses every year while sucking money out of investors (fools) trying to get rich on the next big find.
Speculation: Vancouver’s greatest industry.
I think that article has thoroughly been trashed on vancouvercondo.info.
How many of those 580 cities in the study are actually next to an ocean and has a port?
Also, isn’t Vancouver Stock Exchange used, and maybe still, known as the penny stock capital of the world with lax enforcements? That could explain the 800+ mining companies here.
Lastly, how about some example of industries that actually produce stuff that the rest of the world wants? Or that we can point to people in other provinces or countries as champions of our industry/city? Lululemon and Sleep Country are about the only 2 I can think of that people outside of Vancouver might have heard of.
that’s the murton stroke job fluff piece
‘read at your own risk’ should be attached.
Vancouver Stock Exchange has not existed for over a decade. It’s successor is TSX.V and has headquarters in Calgary.
Btw, the Vancouver Sun is posted under “Entertainment”…
when my bro got his securities certificate he considered a job on the VSX (this is years ago, obviously) and when he didn’t do it, i asked why:
“they’re all cokeheads.”
lol! a fairly ubiquitous lifestyle choice here in cracktown.
Have been in Vancouver for 1 year..
2nd tier city with a good view.
I can use the exact same arguments and have a stronger case for at least 50 cities in North America
“According to Rusty and the average RE bull, it’s your *obligation* to buy”.
never said this.
Of course, buying isn’t for everyone. We live in a capitalist system. This means we have wealthy and poor. The wealthy buy west side homes, West Van, big lots, etc. The well off buy detached homes in good neighbourhoods, the next class buy detached in other neighbourhoods, then townhomes, condos, etc. There will be a segment of our total population that will never be able to own. In Vancouver, as in any other expensive locale in the world, this segment is a greater % of the total. That’s just reality.
You implied it many times.
Not interested in your crap…
Vancouver is not a city of careers. Get out there are try to drive around in the middle of the afternoon on a weekday – it’s worse than rush hour. And don’t get me started about weekend traffic. Nobody works in this city…many folks don’t need to. This is what you renters are up against – so much wealth that folks simply move here to: drive their kids to school, drive around all day shopping, drive their kids to soccer/piano lessons/etc., drive around on weekends shopping and visiting relatives.
And what happens if the all the people that makes a city work leaves because they can’t afford to buy or even rent here? Or just those highly skilled people decides to leave? Like doctors, specialists, university profs, etc? How would that appeal to all those rich people planning on flocking to Vancouver or already here?
Ick. Living amongst a bunch of plutocrats driving porches sounds not very attractive. It must be hard to raise kids in this atmosphere.
plutocrats… that’s another good way of saying c
apparatchiks
[Bloomberg] – Porsche Cayenne Surging in China as Deliveries of SUVs Increase 30%
http://tinyurl.com/65zs6ax
I simply couldn’t resist that. Wicked is as wicked does. On the other hand, as Forrest Gump’s Momma famously intoned, “A man only needs so much money. The rest is just for show.”
it was the guy that smashed up the Lamborghini Revention because he couldn’t good service – that was just too much. there are people going hungry, just fucking sell it and donate the money.
DO THE RIGHT THING. BE A MAN.
Wow, rusty, just when I thought you can’t post anything more idiotic than your past comments…
@rusty
so what you’re saying is that there’s a lot of bored middle aged chinese housewives i could be servicing?
hahahahahaha!!
too funny!!
ooh, that reminds me… I got some juicy gossip about exactly that. An astronaut mom I know has been having multiple affairs here and scandalising the family. When her sister in law caught wind of it there was a huge scene with her sons and sister in law yelling at her in Costco to stop this behaviour and then there were tears and storming off. I can’t blame her; she meets her husband once a year at christmas. (honestly, they should spend a bit more on plane tickets considering how wealthy they are). Where the hell is she going to get her meat injections? Derp has too many to service; he can’t keep them all satisfied.
i have a friend who shall remain nameless that was and to my knowledge still is boning a 40 year old independently wealthy millionaire from the mainland – her husband is in china minding the family businesses (party members that own hotels and car dealerships) she tried to buy him furniture but he refused.
we’re over 6 feet with blonde hair and blue eyes.
fish. barrel. shot. sorry, ugly truths.
they make think it’s lebensraum but the reality is that our culture will ‘corrupt’ the shit out of them.
really it’s just called living.
I wouldn’t be too hasty, DD…
[LA Times] – Wife arrested in penis-severing case; life sentence possible
http://tinyurl.com/6h9k4mr
lol yeah i don’t do crazy
The people you see out and about could be those consisting of the 7.3% unemployment rate and the vast majority of people who work in the service industries and nightlife industries in Vancouver.
I’m sure a number of regular readers here will find these employment figures in great length rather interesting;
http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/pubs/lfs/lfsdata.pdf
Toronto is 10th. Calgary and Montreal are nowhere to be seen. Calgary is a one horse town and Montreal is more of a public sector city than Ottawa.
what do you mean ‘more of a public sector city than ottawa’?
“Column: Does Vancouver match the criteria for ‘world-class’?”:
This article cracks me up. Why is Vancouver so obsessed with this World Class nonsense? Is this left over from being a colony of Britian or something? Who cares what the rest of the world thinks?
yank: it was never an issue until the last 10 years – it just went bonkers. it was about 3 or 4 years ago they started issuing ‘the best place on earth’ license plates. i still have the old ones (i like them better) that just say “Beautiful British Columbia”
our tourist slogan used to be “supernatural bc” and now it’s
“AREN’T WE SO FUCKING AWESOME??? OMIGAWWWWD!”
haha
Gregor Robinson: “Vancouver is a world class city! Can’t you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?’”
“yank: it was never an issue until the last 10 years – it just went bonkers. it was about 3 or 4 years ago they started issuing ‘the best place on earth’ license plates. i still have the old ones (i like them better) that just say “Beautiful British Columbia””
“Beautiful British Columbia” sounds like a much better license plate. If this has just happened in the last few years it must be the real estate crazy.
With grunge & microsoft in the early ’90s Seattle got a bit uppity. Seattlites had long felt inferior to San Fran and Los Angeles. People seem to have chilled into an “I’m ok, you’re ok” attitude.
Yank – Not sure about the former colony theory, nobody goes around Sydney talking about how world class it is. One of the top 40 stations used to say “broadcasting from the best city in the world” but I’m not sure if they still do.
All that matters here is being better than Melbourne.
I think Rusty kind of has a point. He and that Van Sun reporter may be on to something. I was seriously scratching my head trying to figure out where all the rich vacants that didn’t bring their money from overseas got rich. There are beastly amounts of big houses and expensive cars in West Van and Van West even wtihout any HAM. It can’t all be old money. Now it’s starting to make sense. Mining companies shift big bucks around and anyone siphoning fees from those flows through the transactions they broker/process/etc/ is automatically a vacant. I knew one who is working in finance for a mining comapny and he is damn rich. That’s the missing piece of the puzzle. Still, we all know these dudes are the minority. The median and average wages do not justify the house prices, and those jobs are not being handed out like sick bags at a Celine Dion concert.
and don’t forget organized crime, there’s a lot of that here, too.
yeah. that too. Scammers also. I heard of one scammer who mails out offers to other countries, then gets envelopes of cash mailed back by the dupes. Apparently, there are quite a few operating out of downtown van.
Yeah and Americans. Why just yesterday I witnessed four — count them, four — Washington license plates on the road.
Not to mention the Longshoremen earning upwards of $100K per year
Or the railway engineers, $120K.
Or ship captains. Vancouver is a port, after all. $150K easy.
Commercial pilots. $150K
Then there’s the government consultants. $200K.
The list goes on. If anyone’s wondering how people afford real estate, there are scores of professions who qualify. Never mind the stats.
there’s lots of people in the sunshine club – my neighbor’s brother is a tugboat pilot – he restores jaguars. he also owns a bus.
@Jesse
Yes, lots of professions qualify for RE ownership. By none of those salaries quite qualifies their recipients as really really wealthy Pretty Vacants. Only with serious frugality can they afford both the RE and the Ferr RE.
I believe you will find Calgary is more than a one horse town, it is currently hosting the Calgary Stampede.
@ canuckdownunder
not only do residents in Sydney debate their “world class” status, but the rest of the country has a hate-on for anyone who lives there – and renters hate owners just as much there as here. I’d say Sydney is pretty much the Vancouver of Aus.
Read the comments section to this article.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/29/sydney-pays-people-to-leave
sounds like your kind of place
Notwithstanding the PostApocalyptic ClimbingRoaches, you’ve got to admit – your concierges were certainly interesting, ‘o GreatKeeper…
http://tinyurl.com/67hwomt
PS – all nascent artistes are obliged to experience at least one ‘burlesque’ phase… (‘Nemesis’ did his in pre-unification W. Berlin – albeit, briefly.)
well it was more out of necessity than anything else i think my share of rent was $200 – but we were literally 2 or 3 floors above that sign – when i was there, there were no girls outside it – it was seriously nasty – not as bad as the DTES, though! i lived with a very obese American who was a grad from Notre Dame and a Sydneysider who had stolen and spent all of his father’s life savings after being an Australian boxing champion. i knew him after this period, where his time was then spent ‘in hiding’ – i recall that he took 4 friends up to Cairns and back in 1st class on Virgin – total wanker.
this was a time of great struggle for me as i just tried to get and keep any job i could down there. i ended up packing it in and heading back up brisbane, then onto bali. it was then that i realized that the working holiday visa program is essentially a license to be treated like an illegal alien in the United States.
Everybody knows that Sydney is a major world city.
Vancouver is not.
lol i spent 3 months living above porky’s strip club in king’s cross
a low point, sort of. i’ll never forget opening my window and just seeing hundreds of roaches crawling up the side of the building.
In Queensland — green roaches in a University lecture hall just hanging out during the day! Everybody was cool with it.
In the US south we call them waterbugs. It makes us feel better about the situation.
Little known fact:Vancouver now has more than just a Rat problem (one sees them all the time now): We have Roaches! yes, they are all over the DTES.
And worst of all – Bedbugs – all over the city. My brother was living in an apartment near VGH, and the new occupant in the building, a Russian* gentleman, had no idea that bedbugs were bad – he himself was covered in bites. When asked why he hadn’t reported them to the property manager before the other apartments were infested, he said “It’s no big deal. They don’t bother me.”
So, tell me again why we can’t allow more Americans to immigrate?
* – some of my best friends are Russian
vreaa can you edit this for me, i’ve spent the whole day reading chinese forums and my brain and thus english syntactical abilities have turned to mush. please and thanks.
Rusty I bow down to your superior wisdom.
Obviously a bunch of ex-pat Aussies and Poms arguing about Sydney on the comments section of a UK newspaper is more indicative of what goes on in this city than the experience of someone who actually lives here (the Poms aren’t known for whinging, are they?). And although I never hear anyone debating our world class status I’ll just take your word for it.
This $7000 the NSW government is giving people to move to the country is such a farce. In order to qualify you have to be an owner in Sydney who sells their home and then buys a new one in the country. But when you buy your new house in the country you have to pay stamp duty to the NSW government. So if your country house costs $400,000 you pay $13,500 in tax. Good deal for them I guess.
I will concede that there is a small cockroach problem in this city, the NSW rugby league team is even nicknamed the Cockroaches. I work in the CBD and I’ve seem some massive ones there this fascinating pink colour. I guess that comes with the climate – I have mentioned that we’ve had 8 days above 20C already this winter, haven’t I?
dude,
just pointing out that this navel gazing discussion happens about Sydney from residents too; you claimed it did not.
Besides the difference in climate Vancouver and Sydney are pretty much as similar as any two cities can be. Sydney likely not as popular a tourist destination as Vancouver due to the difficult travel. If Sydney is not world class than neither is Vancouver, and visa versa.
Well I actually said this: “nobody goes around Sydney talking about how world class it is.” Which is true, nobody does.
What you’re saying is that people discuss the city in which they live/lived in. Wow! Please note that this is different to suggesting that a city is “world class.”
I actually agree with you, I believe that both Sydney and Vancouver are world class cities. Canada is and will continue to be one of the greatest countries in the world to live in, so as far as I’m concerned this makes Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal and Calgary world class cities (despite the differences in climate I actually preferred life in Calgary to life in Sydney).
The real problem is that a lot of people (well, realtors and politicians, so I use the term loosely) use this “world class” status to justify prices which are simply out of whack with fundamentals.
Vancouver is definitely a great city to live in (aside from the housing problems and the porches) but I don’t understand how that makes the city a “world class city.”
Portland is a great city to live in. So is Seattle. I like Nice, France. I also like Florence, Italy.
These cities are not Rome, Berlin, London, New York, Toronto, Hong Kong.
they come so they can live in our fantastic housing stock..
https://downandoutinvancouver.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/washington-slumlord-crams-19-people-into-new-westminster-favela/
My point was that these major Canadian cities would all be great places to live in. Getting into pissing matches about what constitutes a “world class” city is pointless, there’s no way to conclusively decide that one city is objectively better than another. I’m sure if you asked 100 people which city was more world class, Sydney or Calgary, 100 people would answer Sydney. Yet having lived in both I prefer Calgary, ultimately it’s a matter of personal preference.
So are the people complaining about how Vancouver isn’t world class really bitter because they’re not living in New York or Paris? I doubt it. Chances are this is just a corollary of the misallocation of resources resulting from the housing boom, let’s call it a misallocation of emotions. They’re really just frustrated that prices are out of whack.
“My point was that these major Canadian cities would all be great places to live in. Getting into pissing matches about what constitutes a “world class” city is pointless, there’s no way to conclusively decide that one city is objectively better than another. I’m sure if you asked 100 people which city was more world class, Sydney or Calgary, 100 people would answer Sydney. Yet having lived in both I prefer Calgary, ultimately it’s a matter of personal preference.”
I’ve been confused and curious about why this debate about “world class cities” tm is so common in Canada. (I’ve lived in Chicago & Seattle and never heard any newspaper talk like this before.) For the most part I’d rather live in a not-world-class city (Seattle, for example) then deal with the traffic of say, Los Angeles.
I was under the impression that “world class” in this sort of rhetoric didn’t refer to the better & nicer place to live, but the prominance of the city itself — the importance of the city in the world economy, the status of the educational system, the #s of international flights into the city, the size of the manufacturing base/ port/ GDP, the cultural institutions, ect., ect.
I’ve also come to the conclusion that the rhetoric coming out of Vancouver about this is probably tied into a justification of the housing prices: ie – “we can defy fundamentals/ this is a paradigm change in the status of our city because…”. While Vancouver may defy fundamentals because of a combination of turning into a Pacific Rim Monaco & the current Chinesse property boom/bubble, Vancouver is not defying fundamentals because it is the next London/ Frankfurt/ Berlin or NYC.
For a while I was wondering if it was a wierd sort of colonial left over – “we’re better then London because….” But after our last discussion it sounds like this “world class city” obsession is about the property prices.
Since I’ve arrived in Canada I’ve heard this phrase “world class city” literally dozen of times in many different circumstances. I’ve heard people say it about Vancouver (oh, lots) Calgary, and even, wait for it, Edmonton!?! Oddly enough, I don’t hear it about Toronto. I’ve been confused and curious about what why this meme is so common.
@Yank
Canadians have a deep-seated insecurity about not mattering on the world stage, about being inconsequential in the eyes of the rest of the world. Hence the ubiquity of this “world class city” meme.
so much so that we’ll hitch our wagon to another great sham
@Canuckdownunder
nobody goes around Vancouver talking about how this city is “world class” either. I’ve never heard this discussion in person, only in print. Just the same as your Sydney experience.
“Vancouver is a world class city, and it is embarrassing and shameful to see the type of violence and disorder we’ve seen tonight.” – Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson [G&M, 16 Jun 2011]
for the win!
@yank
“Oddly enough, I don’t hear it about Toronto. I’ve been confused and curious about what why this meme is so common”.
again, you’re focused on Vancouver so of course you don’t hear the Toronto debate about world class. No-one talks about these things in person because it’s ridiculous. The fact that we’re doing it here also makes us equally so.
Here’s a sample of Toronto doubting it’s “world class” status. So now you can never again say you don’t hear it:
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=7&bpn=779502&ts=2009-04-30%2020:00:35.0
no, rusty
you’re the only one arguing that vancouver is world class
the rest of us know it’s shite.
“Here’s a sample of Toronto doubting it’s “world class” status. So now you can never again say you don’t hear it:”
Oh my. ok – maybe it’s little brother syndrome with the US or something. I’ve not heard this in any other country. I would guess that they don’t do this in Montreal.
honestly, we`re not all like rusty.
he`s a [expletive deleted -ed.].
here, have some house pr0n.
https://downandoutinvancouver.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/losers-and-doers-which-one-are-you/
here is a list of world class cities. The only one I doubt from this list is Las Vegas. I would expand the list considerably to include Beijing, Dublin, Florence, etc.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=world%20class%20city
Seeing as we’re discussing rankings and listings, here’s a look at Global Cities, with alpha, beta and gamma rankings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city
Vancouver ranks ‘Gamma +’, along with Montreal, Nairobi, Bratislava, Panama City, Chennai, Brisbane, Casablanca, Denver, Quito, Stuttgart, Zagreb, Manama, Guatemala City, Cape Town, San José, Minneapolis, Santo Domingo, Seattle
‘Alpha’ cities include London, New York, Hong Kong, Paris, Singapore, Tokyo, Sydney, Milan, Shanghai, Beijing, Madrid, Moscow, Seoul, Toronto, Brussels, Buenos Aires, Mumbai, Kuala Lumpur, Chicago
And, not all that far away from Bratislava… České Budějovice. Where the happy indigenes indisputably enjoy bragging rights to something authentically “WorldClass”… Just ask Bob&Dave [PG 13]
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT7UOacrUl4&w=425&h=349%5D