From ‘Asian Real Estate Influx’, Global TV News, 7 Jun 2011 -
Announcer: “Demand from Asia is one of the reasons Vancouver prices have kept rising. There are now one million millionaires in China, that’s tripled since 2005… and many are looking to invest in Canada.”
Announcer: “In downtown Beijing, these women are looking to buy some real estate – in Vancouver. They are at the Beijing office of a Canadian real estate firm which offers hundreds of homes for sale in Vancouver and Toronto.”
Ma Ying, Shanghai resident – (translation over) “Vancouver is relatively cheaper than big cities in China, it is well worth it. Toronto is even cheaper than Vancouver.”
Announcer: “Can Good is the president, we met him in Hong Kong where he is now setting up another office to sell Canadian homes.”
Cam Good: “We are really at the very start of a big wave of demand coming mostly from the uber-rich in Chinese (sic) which has been there for years, but what we’re seeing now is a growing middle class, that is just now being able to afford international options for their kids/ for their children, for real estate…”
Announcer: “Fearing a property bubble, China’s government made second mortgages difficult to acquire, and is considering a new tax on principle residences… it’s led to a stampede of buyers to Canada.
Announcer: “In Vancouver it’s grown to the point Good provides helicopter tours for Chinese real estate agents. Many are buying near good schools.”
Ma Hong: (translation over) “I think I will send my kids to primary school in China, and send them to high school in Canada, which I think is better in education”
Announcer: “In the Vancouver suburb of Richmond, average home price is over a million dollars. This home sold for $500K more than it was bought for just last year. It’s considered a teardown. Many worry the Asian influx will lead to a backlash from locals squeezed out of the market. Good doesn’t have much sympathy…”
Cam Good: “If you don’t want to live in a city that beautiful, with that much demand, umm.. then maybe you should live somewhere else, because in any city, no matter where it is, if there is international demand you are going to have these concerns, so either you want to live there or you don’t.”
Announcer: “And clearly China’s new rich want a piece of the Canadian dream.”
—
Cam Good is on a roll, clearly, but his words remind us of a player taunting the goalie at the end of a, say, 8-1 win. He’s gotten a lot nastier than on earlier broadcasts. Perhaps not the best long-term game strategy for a salesman.
Cam is ‘all-in’ the ‘new Monaco’ scenario for Vancouver. File under ‘Limitless Demand Argument For Ongoing Market Strength’.
- vreaa
cam good wants locals to leave, frees up more supply.
I laughed out loud.
u raff u ruse
It is ridiculous and a bit irresponsible to be as cocky as Cam Good, on the other hand, I’m still trying to get a grip on the scale of Chinese demand compared to previous Vancouver RE bubbles, as well as the intensity of focus on Vancouver. Are there other ( non Canadian, non Toronto) cities that these upper and middle class Chinese are looking at?
or is perhaps vancouver a strategic location?
the soft underbelly of the north american perimeter, etc. etc. lol
A few weeks ago, on vancouvercondo.info, I have posted links to multiple articles from various cities around the World that claim that the Chinese are driving their market to the moon. Most of those markets are now crashed.
they’re as whorish as goldman sachs
“China is catching on to this massive outflow of money to our “safe haven” however, and I’ve heard directly from immigrants that the family living in Canada is being disallowed visas to return to China for visits.”
This little anecdote was in the comment thread of the Globe’s story predicting Vancouver RE correction. For all I know, it was written by Cam Good after drinking too many bottles of Chinese snake wine. However, if this kind of thing is starting to happen it could certainly cool down some of that hot money.
live != own. Poor misguided Cam Good. He just can’t shut up and make his money quietly like everybody else.
“Now things are worse.” -Yoda
His comment really stung me. You work your butt off to do well in this town. Start a family. Make $250k. Accept that it going to take a while before owning a 4 bedroom house with a yard in the city. It could still be a ways off……maybe never.
Then this guy, who makes his living selling the soul of our city out to dirty money, tells me that I need to get out and make room for foreigners.
When does the pendulum swing back (and hopefully knock him into False Creek…)?
“this guy, who makes his living selling the soul of our city out to dirty money, tells me that I need to get out and make room for foreigners.”
———————
Well said… He’s a total d-bag…
As we said above, the comments he makes here are a lot nastier than his on camera chat at the time of the helicopter story.
Apparently he got some flak for that promotion (didn’t he say somewhere that he was sent critical or even abusive mail?) and we suspect the ‘edge’ he shows now is a result of that.
This is not the best business demeanour, and these comments will rile many.
[update: Cam Good did write an article in the Vanc Sun (21 Apr 2011) where he said "In response to the media coverage of that event, my office was inundated with emails from people who think this will cause a Chinese takeover."]
Cam Good likes to send his lapdog SimeonG to make comments directly on this blog. They must be very confident bunch
it doesn’t have to have a positive business demeanor to locals. he just has to prattle on about harmony and good schools.
This kind of stuff clearly breeds resentment … not a long step from that to hatred
slowmonkeyM -> Unfortunately true.
Again, we fear that this kind of story (and stance) may lead to inter-ethnic tension in the community.
Most of you will have seen this earlier post:
‘It Is Dangerous To Blame The Consequences Of A Speculative Mania On One Sector Of Our Community: Let’s Make Sure We Don’t Do That.’
Local residents of Chinese descent should really tell him to STFU because they are the ones who will suffer from the tension
It scares me a bit that I am starting to feel a level of frustration (not yet hate) towards certain types.
It feels like the playing field here is unfair.
I have to pay almost 44% tax on second half of my earnings. I need to save for retirement. I need to save for the kids education. etc. the list goes on.
Yet I’m forced to compete for living space with money that doesn’t have to pay income taxes here. Some guy makes $20 million off a factory making copyright infringing knock offs, then ships his 4 daughters over here to pay $2mil cash for half the houses on our street.
I could afford this stuff too if I didn’t have to pay tax.
When will a politician stand up and demand that foreign non-resident money pay a premium to hold our residential land? How are we supposed to compete when one side has briefcases of dirty or untaxed money?
rf -> You are making a very valid argument, and restrictions on offshore buyers may well be warranted.
jesse has made that argument, with suggestions, at various sites.
Peter Ladner has attempted to open a public dialogue on the issue (anybody know where that went/is going?).
The Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions is apparently taking a look at foreign holders of RE in its review of bank exposure to mortgage debt.
As an ethnic minority born in Canada with a family that for three generations, has fled two countries to avoid economic strife and apartheid, I find your whining and sense of entitlement absolutely pathetic. You have no idea how good your life is here.
That faceless and evil Chinese millionaire is one of the main reasons British Columbia’s GDP hasn’t been annihilated. That person has just injected 2 million dollars into the pockets of some other white Canadian. Perhaps you should be questioning the ethics of such a person for accepting dirty money?
matt -> We would argue that it is very fair that rf feel considerable frustration.
As you know, we have argued elsewhere that this frustration is primarily the result of the broad speculative mania in Vancouver RE, and that speculation by off-shore players has only been a subplot.
But, nonetheless, it is very fair for prudent savers who are prospective buyers to feel considerable frustration when accommodation in their city becomes the plaything of speculators, and prices thus run up beyond their (prudent) reach. This is what has happened in Vancouver; as you well know the average home now costs 11 (eleven) times the average income.
Your comment comes very close to “You have no idea how good your life is here…. therefore shut-up and buy.” Is that what you’re implying?
Listen you idiot, rf is calling for restrictions on that dirty money. We don’t want the dirty money here, get it? And its doing nothing for our economy which is the shits right now.
I don’t care what craphole you came from, this place is going downhill fast and I want that to change.
“We don’t want the dirty money here”
I don’t think the line between clean and dirty is as, um, clean as many think. We are talking magnitude of “dirty money” because I don’t think native BCers can ubiquitously claim sainthood. It is entirely possible that many immigrants from China earned their money fair and square, or just managed to get rich at the expense of someone a little bit stupider than themselves, like many upstanding Vancouver residents. I know it’s a stretch but I’m having a hard time setting my morality compass.
No VREAA, you know I wouldn’t encourage anyone to buy real estate at these prices. My message is “[expl.del. - ed.] and bare it.” The injection of capital into this city has been beneficial to those who have sold their shitty hovels for a king’s ransom. Those of us (including myself) who weren’t lucky enough to win the real estate lottery have several options, including renting or moving. Vancouverites have led such sheltered and parochial lives it’s like listening to a bunch of crying infants sometimes.
No one is stopping you from moving elsewhere Mike. Why don’t you pick up your toys and leave?
Those of you who voted for the NDP in the 90s did so with a view to protecting your confortable jobs based on primary industries. Well we’re now paying the price for your stupid decisions with a provincial economy that produces third rate hollywood movies and, uh, iphone games.
“The injection of capital into this city has been beneficial”
I guess that all depends what’s done with it. Now if some not-so-rich local or not-so-rich foreigner decides to buy from a rich foreigner who pipes the cash back to her offshore account and borrow from a Bay Street bank to do so, it’s not so certain where the money eventually ends up.
I’ve seen the caustic effects of inappropriate land hoarding in SE Asia by rich foreigners. It changes the dynamic of a city and makes it difficult to attract the best and the brightest. High real estate prices should be the result of, not the reason for, a strong economy, a theme that Vancouver should take to heart, if it is truly interested in being considered alongside the world’s elite.
It’s not the homeowner’s job to determine if money is dirty or not… It’s the Federal Government’s duty after they opened up their “Buy a Passport” Investor-class immigrant program. If the Feds stopped acting like a banana republic and stopped making assets a qualifying criteria for immigration, we wouldn’t have these problems. I’d rather see immigrants come here with a good attitude and skill than a bagful of dirty cash.
I respect your posts jesse but I think you really have it backwards. Vancouver is never going to develop a ‘world class’ (i fucking hate this phrase) economy just by virtue of having low real estate prices. As long as politicians take the path of least resistance and focus on developing and subsidising primary industries, we aren’t going to see any creative or novel economic policies designed to take advantage of Vancouver’s proximity to Asia.
Please recognise that my full statement was “The injection of capital into this city has been beneficial to those who have sold their shitty hovels for a king’s ransom. ” In no way am I suggesting some that we benefit from retarded trickle down reaganomics. I am merely suggesting that those who are demonizing foreign investore need to recognise that there is a right-hand-side to this equation.
“Vancouver is never going to develop a ‘world class’ … economy just by virtue of having low real estate prices.”
I don’t think anyone is stating that real estate needs to be cheap, only that real estate needs to support local economic development by providing utility to those producing economic value. Further an over-reliance on real estate produces a boom-bust mentality that is a distraction. I would advocate that Vancouver sobers up and shows unproductive economic activity the door.
When I talk about “world class” I’m talking about talking about something other than real estate at dinner parties and family gatherings. It’s a distraction.
I don’t care what craphole you came from, this place is going downhill fast and I want that to change.
THANK YOU
matt, I’m not leaving but you [expletives deleted. -ed.].
I know a guy who left South Africa when his cousin was murdered by rampaging thugs and his friends were brutalized in a home invasion. He never gave me your crap about “gee be thankful for what you got”. He said “You have an awesome country and I’m lucky to be here”.
My grandfather took a bullet so I could live in a decent country, and I’m going to keep that way regardless of [expl.del. -ed.] like you.
NEWSFLASH: The NDP hasn’t been in government in 10 years. Our economy was ruined by Campbell and the real estate mafia.
In other words, I don’t believe for a minute you came from a poor country, you [expletives deleted -ed.].
So what you’re saying is that we are letting the wrong type of immigrant into this country? What you’re saying makes a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things. The race riots in northern England, France and Germany would probably not have taken place if their government had been more perceptive about the sensitivities of good white Canadians like yourself. I remember reading a paper in Foreign Affairs (I think..) that attributed thesocial harmony of Scandinavian countries to their relatively ethnically homogeneous populations. Truly oppressed people like your white south african friend are the right sort of immigrant aren’t they?
FOAD troll.
matt, Mike ->
I think you each have valid concerns here; let’s try and stick to content and discuss the issues. Turn the ad hominem down.
matt does not have valid concerns.
matt has valid concerns but they’re the third rail of our immigration policy.
plus, there is no political will (though there may be sufficient political capital) to change things. if you speak to any canadian whose family has been here longer than 20 years and ask if 300,000 immigrants per year is too many for our society to incorporate into our ‘mosaic’ they will invariably say ‘yes’ or ‘probably’ or ‘holy shit, it’s that many?? no one told me’ etc.
the other day i had a funny conversation with a 75 year old first nations guy at the liquor store – i asked him what to first nations people think of immigration policy, given that my english/scottish ancestors were the ones who colonized the place and started farming, etc. and he said there is certainly considerable resentment.
things to think about.
There are 1.3 billion people in China and 1 million millionaires. The disposable income per capita for urban households in 2009 was 17,000 RMB which is about $2500 Cdn. The disposable income per capita for rural households was 5,000 RMB, about $750 Cdn. In the grand scheme of things, the middle class are still very poor compared Canadians. I hardly think the middle class in China will be rushing over here to buy anything. Those that are buying here are doing so because their own government is limiting financing for 2nd properties because they recognize they have a bubble. Does this not seem silly that these same investors don’t recognize the same speculative mania in Vancouver? Or rather is this behaviour indicative of the newly wealthy but unsophisticated investor that has done no research?
Cam Good is a disgrace, a parasite that is fueling the speculative boom.
“Those that are buying here are doing so because their own government is limiting financing for 2nd properties because they recognize they have a bubble. Does this not seem silly that these same investors don’t recognize the same speculative mania in Vancouver? Or rather is this behaviour indicative of the newly wealthy but unsophisticated investor that has done no research?’
THANK YOU
i am tired of being told the person driving a $100,000 car is smart with their money.
Cam Good reps the worst in RE and shows why a lot of people like me think a lot of Realtors are reptiles.
How does he rep the worst RE?
I’d like to see some hard numbers on sales from non-Canadian nationals in Vancouver. In the larger scope of things, I’d think it would be a very small percentage. But, Vancouver is a smallish city, so a smaller number of millionaries may be able to shift the market in a way that wouldn’t be felt in, say, London. I’m inclined to think this is overblown, but I can’t find numbers on it.
Citizenship (in a non-totalitarian country) is potentially a very valuable status, and might be shifting the numbers. People seem to be emphasizing things like “pretty water and green space” — but I think the far greater value that investors may see is the possibility of multiple citizenships. And Canada offers language immersion classes, which would allow one’s children to work and live in China, but also multiple citizenship identities. For example, a Yank does not have to give up U.S. citizenship to gain Canadian citizenship from Canada. I would assume that Asian immigrants do not have to foreswear their original citizenship status to gain Canadian citizenship (this is a guess, perhaps Americans are given special rights here). That is not true for the U.S.A., btw. New citizens have to foreswear old citizenships unless you’ve been grandfathered in under old rules.
anyways – if somebody has seen a study on the numbers, I’d be interested. The citizenship idea is a new one that I’m playing with in analyzing market forces.
Is it just me, or does Dude look like date rape is not below him?
Jason -> hahaha.
It’s just you.
Let’s try to keep the ad hominem to a minimum.
Sorry, it’s a sure sign I have been moved to blood = boiling, when I fall into ad hom invective. It’s not really like me, but I can’t stands no more.
If the problem is with taxed money competing with untaxed money, why not just level the playing field. Unless you can present a canadian tax return, you should not be allowed to use our hospitals, schools, community centers, etc…and your home taxes should triple. I bet bringing in this policy would stop a major influx of people who don’t actually want to be contributing members of our society.
Why shouldn’t we be banning good white Canadian families from selling to Chinese buyers instead? You could get rid of the capital gains tax exemption for sales of primary residences and I’m sure that would work just as well.
What I’m getting at here is that good white Canadian families that are making lots of money by selling their homes for millions of dollars are just as complicit as the Chinese for destroying the fabric of Vancouver society.
I’ve never understood why capital gains on residences are not taxed, yet stocks, bonds and mutual funds are. Another subsidy given to home owners. I’ve owned homes before and thought this was moronic. An even playing field would be 500K capital gains for homes and/or securities.
Stop with your racism already!
Why has the Canadian government decided to promote home ownership versus renting?
Matt,
In case you didn’t notice, my suggestion is completely neutral in regard to race. I don’t care where in the world the would be investor hails from. If they want to own property here then either live here and be a contributing member of our society (which would include working and paying taxes) or pay tripple the property tax. I don’t care if you’re white, red, yellow, or green…if you don’t pay taxes into the system on all levels by filing a Canadian tax return, the you should have to pay a premium to use the services that those taxes support.
what? If you make 250K you can afford this city, easily. If you’re having trouble with a bigger downpayment it’s because you’re a poor money manager. Having an income this high and renting should be a recipe for high equity. What are you complaining about? There are folks here who would love to have your income so they can afford a home. Quit bitchin
Not wise to get into a mortgage worth more then 3 times your income. And many couples making 250K are leaving medical or grad school with large levels of student debt.
Finally – from the pictures and reports I see, the quality of homes in Vancouver listed for between 600-800K aren’t very good. That means somebody making 250K can’t afford much in Vancouver.
I agree totally, $250K a year after tax is not enough to live in Vancouver at this point. If you have to work for a living and you didn’t buy well before median SFH prices surpassed $1Million – you can not afford Vancouver anymore. This includes most professions unfortunately – doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, economists, etc. This is one of the reasons why regional corporate/government offices are slowly moving out of Vancouver to Surrey and Langley. It’s also one of the reasons why net interprovincial immigration from BC to Alberta has picked up considerably in the last year. The trend is solidly in place for Vancouver to eventually lose it’s entire white collar middle class – basically a Chinese Newport Beach within Canada. Much more tolerable for the super rich Chinese than the significant resentment and eventual danger they will face back home when the next cultural revolution erupts.
i don’t think people realize how pissed off and irrational the peasantry here can get.
Debt = Slavery
Rich Chinese = Slavery
Having an income of $250K+ and high equity doesn’t automatically mean that you should buy, either. It is fair for rf to be hesitant. A “4 bedroom house with a yard in the city” now costs $1.5M-$3M, right?
Almost everyone can “afford” real estate in Vancouver. Remember – no-doc mortgages in Vancouver go up to $750,000!
Yeah.
We will soon headline a recent interview with Steve Keen where he talks about government in Australia engineering, via debt bubble, ‘affordable expensive housing’. Spot on.
If we’re going to allow wealthy Chinese nationals to buy our real estate fro the purpose of gaining citizenship, we whould at least have a basic tax structure in place. How about having a flat annual tax for those entering through “investor class” immigration? Right now they’re having their cake and eating it too – gaining citizenship while keeping all money offshore to avoid taxation.
having 250K income will enable this person to borrow 1.3Million for a home. This is with zero downpayment. If they don’t have the big downpayment then they shouldn’t be whining about high prices – they can afford it unless they’re poor money managers.
“they can afford it unless they’re poor money managers.”
LOL. Unless. Unless…
That is brilliant Rusty. You should get a job at the capital risk management desk at Goldman Sachs.
Rusty,
Man, I just nearly had a heart attack reading your suggestion that some poor dopes take out a 1.3 mill mortgage. holy cr*p.
I think this kind of jumbo mortgage is known as A Very Bad Idea.
it’s not leverage, it’s smart investing
Get real! Did you use your Lotus 123 to come up with that or can you introduce me to your banker?
Canadians are very tolerant and that is admirable. But it is possible to have too much immigration. That’s just a fact.
If Country A with a population of 10 million lets in 20 million people from elsewhere with a different culture, history, and language, it will change Country A into something that it wasn’t before. It isn’t intolerant to admit that. It’s just true.
Country A is a sovereign nation with its own borders. It has zero obligation to let in everyone who knocks on the door. It is not intolerant in the least to have a strict immigration policy.
One reason Vancouver is a hotspot is because you can’t simply buy a home in the US and move your whole family there on a whim. There are visas for those willing to invest a certain amount in a US business. But you can’t just buy a house and say “Hi America, here are my wife and two kids”.
In short, you guys need to tighten up the rules a bit.
Huh? Canada is the same. You can’t just buy a home in Canada and move your family there on a whim. Where are these misconceptions coming from?
i suppose the misconception is caused by the sheer bulk and rapidity with which our new friends reach our shores and call up
where was that stat that there is a waiting list of 46,000 ‘investor’ class migrants from china?
I could be wrong, but from looking at Canadian immigration stuff recently I thought there was an “investor” [wealthy person] option. If the family has a certain amount of $$$ to deposit in a Canadian bank (no need to set up a business) I think that family can apply for Canadian citizenship on that basis. (Correct me if I’m wrong here.)
And I thought during the Hong Kong turnover any family with half a mil to deposit in a Canadian bank could move to Canada. (again, correct me if I’m wrong.) At the time I sort of thought it was morally wrong that people with assets could escape a possible totalitarian take over, but middle and working class people were stuck. Yeah – I know that’s how the world works in general, but it still seems wrong.
Polly, look at my comment below. Investor class exists in US too. Snats makes it look as if the investors can come any time to Canada without much effort, while the US is not letting the same people in. That is simply not true.
Investor class visa – simply demonstrate that you have (laundered) $1.6 M and provide interest free loan to Federal Govt of $800K. If you don’t want to loan the full $800K up front the Cdn banks have loan packages available but then I believe the loan amount is not refunded to the investor. Basically, it’s a way to buy a Cdn passport. My understanding is that there are 35,000 applicants per year for just the Federal program. Quebec has a similar program which applicants also use to settle in Vancouver (no requirement to actually settle in Quebec). Investor class is just one of three programs for relatively wealthy immigrants. Think of the annual sum of money to the Federal Govt. Vancouver residents are paying the brunt of the financial crisis. At least some homeowners are being paid more than they will ever earn in a lifetime to accomodate the Chinese who want out of their country and the Federal Govt that needs the money.
Bubbly,
I believe foriegn buisness investors to the U.S. had to invest in a U.S. based buisness that could support 10 full time employees to get a green card. Again, I’m no expert here, but I was surprised by the “investor class” options in canada, that I thought involved simply bringing money into Candada not starting up a buisness in Canada. I could be entirely mistanken on these differences.
I do know that you only need to be in Canada for 3 years before you can apply for citizenship & spouses can work right away — even before foreign nationals get permanent residency. It’s definitely faster & easier to get citizenship in Canada vs. the USA.
yank, in Idaho and I am sure that in other states too:
Look at my comment below.
Bubbly,
This is the type of thing that I see for Canadian immigration that I was talking about. If you have a certain ammount of $$ you’re in. I do not think the foreign national has to prove that he created any jobs in Canada himself. He just needs to give an interest free loan.
http://www.canreach.com/federal-investor/free-online-assessment
“Canada welcomes successful business people seeking Canadian permanent immigration. Business immigrants represent nearly 10% of all immigrants who come to Canada….
To be eligible the applicant must;… deposit Canadian $800,000 with the Government of Canada for five years. The total money is refunded back after 5 years without any interest. If you do not wish to block your $ 800,000, loan option is available.”
Whereas the US has the EB5 visa: http://www.immigration.ca/us/investment.asp
The foreign investor has to create at least 10 U.S. full time jobs:.
“Individual invests $500,000 in a high unemployment area (150% of national unemployment rate) or $1,000,000 elsewhere and hires 10 persons within 2 years, or invests in a Regional Center and may use job multiplier studies instead of direct employment. Because this category has been controversial INS processing times are slow and unpredictable….First, your are only considering this because you don’t qualify for another visa category and you want a green card. If you invest in a pooled immigrant investor fund, INS will deny your file. Its that simple. If you as an individual invest the required capital amount in a job producing enterprise INS should, after a long processing period approve your case if you have a detailed business plan, a verifiable source of funds, and if you add some value to the business either through your experience/education or as an owner operator. Because of the uncertain processing times, we suggest that you apply for an E visa first, then apply for the EB5.”
[yank: apologies; this was held up in spam queue because of number of links. - ed.]
Cam Good is a scare-tactic marketer who has found a way to bully locals into buying into the mania. From a local’s perspective: The ROTT BOX is telling me that immigrants and mainland asian investors are scooping up property in MY COUNTRY! OMG!!!! I can’t let that happen! I’m originally from here, I pay my taxes, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let outsiders dominate the RE market.
Global gets funding from REmax. and this fact is repeatedly advertised throughout the broadcast. Why so many people give a POS like Cam Good a chance to get to them, on a news broadcast funded by REmax, is beyond me.
The guy has no balls, probably has no kids, lives in a penthouse part time in Yaletown, while doing this stint in China. What would other countries do if this happened to them? People do want to live in Vancouver. The problem is the definition of “live”. Most people want to own a sfh and not rent. Or people want to own a home vs a condo. The westside, West Van, and Richmond will change just like it happened before when they built the mansions in the late 80′s. Finally the city changed building codes so the homes at least fit in to the neighborhood. What will these streets be like – will you know your neighbors? I know personally of a few friends and family who really only know there next door neighbor on the west side. Many have homes where asian children are alone to go to high school/university, or you have families of asians where you only see them driving in/out of their triple garage. There are some young families (maybe transplants from other provinces), and the oldtimers who have been there for years but the majority seem to be Asian. This is just from observation, and talking to friends, so I could be wrong, I hope I am wrong but it just seems there is no feeling of community anymore.
Chinese are investing in Idaho and they are creating actual wealth there, http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/12/31/1472023/chinese-company-eyes-boise.html
Didn’t they hear about Vancouver, the “safe haven” where you can buy permanent residency?
OTOH, in Idaho:
See, investors can buy their way into the US too and they get a much better deal there!
can we start advertising idaho in mingpao?
if you really want to ‘assimilate’ people, get them away from the coast and as Hu Jintao said “go deep into the reality”
If relative to other comparable counties ours is the most lax in terms of restrictions on foreign flows of capital into RE, then a result of this nature shouldn’t be all that surprising.
Its sort of like enacting a carbon tax in isolation (mind the example), the theoretical offset in demand will be picked up by a neighbor, who in theory will enjoy lower prices due to the corresponding drop in consumption. In a nutshell, policy can’t be enacted in isolation in today’s global marketplace (your pain, their gain).
Taking that notion and applying it to Canadian RE, its inherently difficult to stand alone with a lack of rules/restrictions on foreign ownership whilst every other comparable country is doing the opposite. Money will flow to where it can find the best return, and right now, one of those areas is in Canadian RE (perhaps in large part due to the relative ease). This won’t be the last time nor the last asset class that see’s this sort of movement. It seems to be a consequence of modern monetary policy, the only difference the timing between such events seems to be decreasing and the magnitude/volatility increasing.
I’m not an expert on foreign ownership rules in Canada, but from my readings it seems we have some catching up to do. If nothing to reduce the foreign spec aspect of RE investing in Canada, then its worth it.
“immigrants and mainland asian investors are scooping up property in MY COUNTRY! OMG!!!!”
if you don’t think it’s true then call his bluff – don’t buy, ever. No-one will care.
All in all pretty funny. One would think that if the demand was so great that rental costs would go up too? I still pay essentially the same as I did 4 years back, but with substantial improvements in living conditions.
If there is such great demand from non local buyers, there should be increased rental demand from displaced locals. Where is it?
bikemike,
On my walks around Kits and Downtown, over the past 3-4 months I have seen more property available for rent signs than I have seen in the past 5 years. Quite a number of friends I have made who were traveling from the UK and Australia have all absconded from Vancouver to elsewhere in Canada for in their words “a better cost of living”. I’ve spoken to a few building managers who have had to lower prices for the first time in years due to a lack of rental applications.
People are beginning to go elsewhere, because at a certain point, something becomes bad value for money.
My experience has been the opposite – I know very few people who have left, although most I know who have come are here because of the skiing/climbing/etc and most of my circle consists of people who moved here, not people who were born here.
As to the rents – what I was initially trying to say is that while I haven’t really seen a decrease in rents per se, I really haven’t seen an increase either, and over the last 4 years or so, my own rental situation has largely remained the same or improved. (and for reference, I’ve lived in 5 different places in GVRD since moving here in 2005)
I can see how it would be appealing to move for some, as I figure I take a 20% pay hit just by living in Vancouver instead of, say, Ottawa. But, as far as I’m aware, the net population shift is still to the west, not away. If that’s actually correct, one would assume that in being unable to buy property, the newcomers would be forced to rent, creating increased rental demand… although this would seem to contradict what I’ve experienced. On a highly anecdotal level, this makes someone like me conclude that the Asian Invasion is a pile of crap
bikemike, it is rare to find a home in Vancouver without a rental suite in it now. Meaning that houses without suites are often suited out to subsidize the exorbitant cost of the home in the first place. This could explain the continuing growth of the rental property market.
I have lived here for 20+ years now and have year by year over the past 8 years seen a majority of long term local friends depart to Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary and Kelowna due to the price of property. People who have grown up here, cannot afford to live close to their families and are forced to move elsewhere. Strangely enough, everyone who has moved away laughs at the cost of living here and insists they’ve given up nothing asides from their friends by leaving.
Is it so rare? No homeowners that I know host a rental suite.
Regardless, my understanding is that when buying is popular, renting is cheap and vice versa. Armed with that reasoning, based on my observations it would seem that locals are buying houses, not immigrants, as there isn’t much upwards push in rental prices. This of course assumes a net population inflow which has been true in the recent past. The census this year will confirm if that is still true.:)
I’m currently looking for a place to rent and I’ve noticed that rents have declined a little bit since last summer.
@ Rusty
Oh I think its real I never said it wasn’t. But I’ll go do better things with my money than buy an overpriced asset cuz a shill tries to scare me into doing so. Plenty of cheaper and more versatile options out there.
You just keep watching global for gratification and peace of mind. And Rusty, considering what I’ve seen of your posts on here? U better pray he’s right and they keep coming. Sleep tight
Now that i’ve been labelled ‘Cam’s lapdog’ and assumed that he sends me to THIS blog to comment, I might as well do exactly that.
I don’t believe Cam has ever seen this blog nor does he have time to read it. I found this blog on my own, being young and just as affected by the ‘Asian inflation’ of the market as any of you I understand arguments from both sides of the fence.
I in fact run all the China business for The Key, and before I join the company there wasn’t any such thing. So if anyone is to blame here, it should be me. I just don’t understand what the real issue is here. The news makes it sound so much more ‘intense’ than it actually is. If you take everything from the media at face value then you are already a few steps behind. I was there for the entire interview in HK and I can say that there were many questions asked that had a very positive swing to them.. however, aired on Global happened to be responses that make Cam look like he hates Vancouver people.
If you have any specific questions about any of these topics, my work or The Key please let me know and I would be happy to answer as best I can.
Cam’s insulting comments speak for themselves. He can stay in China when the whole economy blows up over there.
what is the legal Capital Flight limit out of China for both party and non-party members?
@Pollyanna
“what is the legal Capital Flight limit out of China for both party and non-party members?”
Can you be more specific? I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking.
well i’m being facetious, apologies
personal capital transfers out of china to a 2nd country – by any means – is there not a legal limit of something like $200,000 US per person?
Well there are MANY ways.
Provincial Nomination Program (allows a non-resident to setup a business in Canada gaining permanent residence)
Investment funds for their children (whom many of which attend school here, and later gain PR status)
Investor Immigration policies (Importing money into a local business)
Starting a business in Canada (that generates revenue)
I could go on and on… needless to say, there are many Chinese who use the ‘grey market’ to wire money out in exchange for assets abroad. Holding companies in HK that receive payment for foreign purchases..etc Non of which is new.
Technically the legal limit has been pushed up (through a roll-out plan starting in major cities). Previously it was $50,000 USD/year per person (ID card #).
Now however this has been moved up up $300,000/year. This technique is simply for transferring ‘personal’ funds out of China. There are many loopholes (as there are here) through business transactions, BIV’s, aseets..etc that allow for Chinese to move capital around.
ok so at $300k a year it would take 15-20 years to move enough money out to buy some of these properties that we’ve seen moving around vancouver.
what’s up?
loopholes being loopholes how legal are they, really?
Well there are MANY ways.
Provincial Nomination Program (allows a non-resident to setup a business in Canada gaining permanent residence)
Investment funds for their children (whom many of which attend school here, and later gain PR status)
Investor Immigration policies (Importing money into a local business)
Starting a business in Canada (that generates revenue)
I could go on and on… needless to say, there are many Chinese who use the ‘grey market’ to wire money out in exchange for assets abroad. Holding companies in HK that receive payment for foreign purchases..etc Non of which is new.
ah simeon,
again, apologies – i was referring to the legality of said methods of capital movement OUT of china in regards to the law IN china, not canada.
And you have no scruples about being complicit in these ‘grey areas’? At what point would decide it is unethical or illegal? Or does that depend on how much money you are offered?
What price your integrity? Or is the threat of presecution your only moral benchmark?
Do tell.
Sorry… ‘threat of prosecution’
this is sort of the 64,000$ question, so i’ll rephrase
how legal, IN CHINA, are these personal capital outflows? (and specifically, how does a mainlander move $1-5mil out of China to Canada over their $300k per annum limit? because i am skeptical that they started socking away $300k per year off shore 20 years ago to save for their vancouver special.
Toys are the first things to go when a real estate bubble starts popping.
“Vacation property market remains mired in downturn”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/vacation-property-market-remains-mired-in-downturn/article2050932/
isnt’ vancouver just ham’s vacation property?
I would say not all of it, just some parts. I actually believe in Vreaa’s theory that the HAM story only has a marginal impact on the RE bubble and that it is mainly driven by local speculators.
I know someone who bought three condos within the same building (not at the same time), all of them $400-$500K. She probably makes around $60K as an immigration consultant…. She convinced one of my friend to do the same thing, which she eventually did. And when I was trying to convince her not to do so, the only thing she replied to me was “it’s the only way you can get rich”. My friend at that time was working on a 6 month contract (no permanent job), put 30% of the equity and got a mortgage for the rest of it. She paid $450K + renovations for it.
This bubble will pop and all the anger about HAM will just disappear as quickly as it appeared.
fascinating, isn’t it??
anyways this pisses me off more than the price-ramping speculation frenzy:
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/East+Vancouver+couple+accused+domestic+slavery/4913604/story.html
81 comments and counting. I am sensing a whole lotta hate. Y’all gotta do something about that rage or at least channel it to somebody who can “do something”.
If this issue is really getting to you, write your local representatives, federal, provincial, and civic, and the leaders of the opposition, and let them know you’re a “one issue voter” and will vote for the person who “does something” to reduce your rage on this issue, whatever that issue is.
I’m with Rusty and Cam. If you don’t like it, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Cam suggests you GTFO but there are other things you can do too.
“Be a man. Do the right thing.” – Chinese store owner in Pacific Mall
I have yet to see one comment by rusty that is not a troll…
But I do agree that people should do something about the situation. I, for example, am going to vote with my feet, as soon as my business obligations in Vancouver end.
“Be a man. Do the right thing.” This is from Russel Peters’ show. I love it…
omg its so much nicer/civil now that rusty is gone.
A topic like this self-trolls. The last time I remember this level of anti-immigrant sentiment was 1994 after an influx of immigrants from HK/TW.
Wait a second, the Canucks were last in the finals in 1994, right? That was about the same time that prices peaked before falling for the next 6 years. Coincidence?
it’s all falling into place
Great story. The Cam Goods of this world were a dime a dozen in the US a few years ago. They simply vanished. Isn’t that something?
Rich Chinese enslave a Filipino woman in East Van
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/East+Vancouver+couple+accused+domestic+slavery/4913604/story.html
And she’s a realtor selling her own house… That’ll make for some fun open houses!
http://www.nicolehuen.com
“good communication is the cornerstone of any successful relationship. you can count on me to provide you with the information you need on a schedule and in a manner that suits you best.” – sure sounds like a shitty boss!!
Good Communication = “Clean my Five F&$%king toilets and 7 bedrooms NOW!”
They found the slave by accident too, or she’d still be suffering today. How many slaves are there in Vancouver hidden in all these big, new houses?
If you’re not a Canadian Citizen yet, are you automatically deported for slavery?
wow, that was brave of the Sun to post that photo with her phone number and website so visible on her for sale sign…
Don’t realtors have to disclose if they are listing their own property?
http://www.realtor.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?PropertyID=10716256&PidKey=-607240169
nope, no regulations at all back home.
You won’t see me defend these assholes or the motherfucking ghost condo jerks.
easy matty, deep cleansing breath x 3
I’d be interested to learn how many of those million Chinese millionaires are millionaires because they’re holding bubbly Chinese RE, or bubbly Sydney RE, or bubbly Vancouver RE. I know a bunch of long term RE holders in Vancouver who qualify, now, as paper millionaires but find the suggestion hilarious, since anywhere else in the world they’d not be anywhere close.
Rusty, I have all of the things you speak of and manage my money well (professionally actually).
Technically, I can afford it. I could afford to buy about $2.1 mil of house.
The question is how rational is that. I could buy a couple of Ferrari’s too….debt free.
Should I be allocating 60% of aftertax income to a 25 year mortgage (i’m sure it’s more than that).
SimeonG said it. Cam’s comment made it sound like he hates people who are from here. I don’t really care about the rest. He said it and that’s what matters.
We have huge social demands (health care, education, etc..). What i don’t see is immigrants having to pay much into. I know they don’t get the benefits until they have been her for 10 years….but by the the time mom and dad, 3 kids and 2 parents are here, permanent residents, and entitled to health care and education….have they put much in if they are not paying income taxes?
I want non-resident speculators (or call them insurance buyers) to pay a 4x premium and a alternative minimum tax of $15,000/year into the system (per family member).
At least my taxes won’t go up to pay for their health care and education. As it stands now, it eventually will. And I don’t think that is fair. I understand that they are paying consumption taxes (although I’m sure their are a lot of cash transactions going on for toys and renos) and some property taxes…….but that’s about it.
I’m paying $100,000 a year in taxes that are subsidizing their parents to get free health care after being here 10 years after babysitting their kids through university. I’ll be paying that tax for a long time on when my nearly seven figure RSP turns into a RRIF in 35 years.
They need to be paying for this, not just for 10 years, and then sucking from the system for another 25. While their cash sits in a tax haven paying their actual bills.
you’re a racist, you’re a racist!
this helps, right?
So what you’re saying is that you want non-resident Canadians to pay a penalty for not living in Canada? The United States does this already as it taxes its non-residents for income which they earn while living outside of the US. There’s a lineup outside the US embassy in Mayfair for American citizens who want to renounce their citizenship. http://goo.gl/WgTRa
Are you saying that Canadians who do not live in Canada are not welcome?
It’s called paying tax on worldwide income… Doesn’t sound like a drastic measure to me…
In the case of these Americans, as with every other country without some sort of tax treaty with the UK, Her majesty’s revenue is going to tax you as well. Is it fair to pay twice the tax? Or are you saying that it’s too bad?
I know lots of ex-pat Americans working in Canada, Australia, Latin America and Europe and we are not about to renounce citizenship. I pay taxes in both countries and it’s not a big deal. There are tax credits that make it pretty easy.
That said — paying taxes is a a different issue then the interest free loan investment thing in exchange for residency/ citizenship that’s going on in Canada.
Canada already taxes world wide income. It does NOT tax non-resident income. USA does. If Canada starts too, I will consider renouncing my canadian citizenship.
Well, lots of folks like having a Canadian passport in their backpocket (including grandchildren of ruthless Syrian generals)… Insurance policies cost money. I think non-residents should pay taxes for that privilege… Heck I’m not even that excited about Canadians having dual citizenships.
Well given a choice between my Canadian passport and my UK/EU passport, you can certainly take the Canadian passport and shove it.
You know where the door is…
Meanwhile, back in Greece…
“By going global, we are also transferring our culture to the rest of the world,” Cosco’s flamboyant chairman, Wei Jiafu at the World Economic Forum, Tianjin in September 2010.
http://www.npr.org/2011/06/08/137035251/in-greek-port-storm-brews-over-chinese-run-labor?sc=17&f=1001
those greeks are racists! disharmonious xenophobes!
Garth Turner has Cam Good in his crosshairs:
http://www.greaterfool.ca/2011/06/08/marketing-2/
lol i always laugh at ‘humpers and pumpers’
anyways more proof that a choice without context is no choice at all
Don’t worry. The anemic real (i.e. non-RE) economy in Canada will eat the naive HAM for dim sum.
I find it funny that 131 replies later no one has suggested taking a page out of the Malaysian book of asian flu solutions: Enact a law that forbids investore class immigrants from removing their money for an extended period of time.
Maybe because it already IS a law.
“CIC will return your C$800,000 investment, without interest, about five years and two months after payment.”
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/investors/index.asp
Hey look, a nice interview with our buddy Cam Good:
http://blog.buzzbuzzhome.com/2011/06/buzz-talk-with-cam-good-interview.html
Hmmm. Cam Good sounds like a case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Quoting wikipedia:
” [A] pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy…as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
* Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
* Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
* Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
* Requires excessive admiration
* Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
* Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
* Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
* Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
* Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
”
He pretty much pegs the dial here – I’d score him at 8 or 9.
I find it bizarre that so many people here automatically assume that foreign money is “dirty”, whereas any wealth created locally here must be “clean”. I guess none of the wealth generated in BC and Alberta are from the pot trade, gambling, gang activity, tar sands, etc. I would venture to guess that not one in a hundred of the posters here who are so quick to call the foreign money dirty personally knows a single immigrant to Canada who got their wealth from ill gotten gain. If you do, you should state it upfront to lend some credibility when you make these broad generalizations. It’s sad that even in the face of the obvious conclusion that lower tax jurisdictions such as he U.S. and Asia make it easier for their citizens to save more of their earnings and create wealth, many Canadian residents see this foriegn wealth creation as prima facie evidence that some crime must have been involved. “I can’t seem to get ahead in Canada paying a combined effective tax rate of 50% of my income to the government. How are these foreigners doing it? It can’t be because they have a 15% flat income tax rate and no capital gains tax. It must be because they’re all criminals who stole their money from someone else.” There’s a saying that in a democracy, people always get the government that they deserve. When I see that people in lower tax jurisdictions like the U.S. and Asia are earning more than people in higher tax jurisdictions like Canada, my conclusion is that we need to elect a government who will lower taxes until we are competitive with other jurisdictions, so that hard working Canadians can keep more of their hard earned income and have a fighting chance. To my bewilderment, many people here seem to believe that the important question is why these other people have so much money, and how can we pass laws to punish their success or protect us from their wealth. I think this bizarre attitude speakes volumes as to why the NDP will always have a following here in Canada: “Let’s not think about how we can all become more successful; let’s think about how we can tax successful people so they can be poor like us.”
money gotten thru the ccp system is not tainted with the blood of tens of millions from the famines of the great leap forward, the cultural revolution and preceding civil war? how exactly was the whole edifice put in place in your version of events? some of us are operating on a longer time frame than quarterly returns.
If you have a 50 year old axe to grind with Mao then this is probably the wrong forum for it.
Umm I don’t think that the Canadian poor or the not-so-rich are anywhere near as poor or not-so-rich as those in China. Their lifestyles are top-notch, in part due to the huge government infrastructure in place funded by the taxes on the middle class and the rich.
All that this taxation regime is doing is spreading the wealth, not making the rich “poor like the rest of us”. Would you prefer a spread of wealth more like the one in China, where those that do the work in the factories that creates the wealth live on a few dollars a day while the “successful people” you want to reward even more smash up brand new Lamborghinis in public displays?
Why do you think all these wealthy Chinese want to come to Canada? Is it because we are sitting on the same dangerous wealth differential which causes a de facto feudal system primed for its cyclical reset revolution, or is it… perhaps… just maybe… that we distribute the wealth of the nation derived from its resources and from the hard work of its people, more fairly among the people, and therefore we enjoy what is known as a high standard of living for everybody and what is known as “political stability”?
Gee, that’s a tough one.
Of course, there are freeriders. But no system is perfect, and the alternative to feeding the pigeons is having the pigeons raid your kitchen and shit on your furniture. It’s currently a small price to pay.
dangerous reductionism
That deserves a treat, Polly!…
Whatever domestic/local atagonisms Mr. Good’s remarks may engender – he would be well advised to avoid annoying his new hosts…
“Beijing – Exaggerated advertising claims for high-end properties targeting the super rich in China have come under widespread criticism for encouraging people to flaunt their wealth and for deliberately using misleading language. Jiang Xiaolan, chief of the advertising supervision department under the administration for industry and commerce in Fuzhou, capital of Fujian, told China Daily his team are making efforts to tackle the problem, focusing on fraud and misleading information about the property’s size, location and pricing.”
[ChinaDaily] – Exaggerated property ads get hostile response
http://tinyurl.com/67qxqbz
Ma Ying is hot. People haven’t notice that!
clear the cobwebs out, first
An article from the WSJ (which along with other MSM is giving a lot of “airtime” to the chinese housing market (see recent financial times series). I’m sorry to say that these “bad guys” are some of those winging their way over here.
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/06/09/a-taxonomy-of-china-housing-market-bad-guys/
good article, thank you
SURELY, the good people at border services would never let people like this into our little oasis of sanity and compassion.
Well, I think this wouldn’t be fare. If you want to live in a beautiful place and you can’t just because the price is not affordable, It’s so sad. The demand has increased in just one year, is quite strange.
i didn’t know the beauty of british columbia started at the inlet and ended in the valley – but know i do. vancouver median SFH to $20million!! (RMB, of course)
another living = owning headcase
[lol - ed.]
Canada has a weak backbone and is scared to stand on anyone’s toes. As a country and especially in Vancouver, there is a seething frustration and anger forming over the influx of buyers from mainland China. This is not only fuelled by the massive cultural transformation, but also from the rampant price wars and speculation driving up prices. Most Canadians cannot even consider affording a house in Toronto or Vancouver while starting a family. We then wonder why our birth-rates are so low; check the cost of living and get back to me on that.