“The more I think back over the past six years, the more I realise how crazy this town has actually been. As a naive 24 year old, when I arrived in 2004 I took it as a fact of life that house prices rose forever.”

TPFKAA at VREAA 16 Jan 2011 9:09pm“The more I think back over the past six years, the more I realise how crazy this town has actually been. As a naive 24 year old, when I arrived in 2004 I took it as a fact of life that house prices rose forever…. that’s what everyone told me. I also believed that the route to riches was to invest in RE.

Latent anecdotes that I paid no attention to in the past now take on more significance. There were people I met who were obviously making a superb living through RE investment: I remember two in particular. Back in fall of 2005, A forklift driver and lead hand at a warehouse where I briefly worked, owned five rental properties in Poco. He had owned a cannery back in the eighties and made a killing. He had no real need to work; he had already retired once in his early forties. But after two years he realised he was spending all his money at a crazy rate, on harleys, snowmobiles, a boat and cottage on Harrison, golf, drinking parties, and so forth. He decided to go back to work to have something to do. He chose to go back to forklift driving because he was extremely good at it and enjoyed himself doing it (his dad had been a big warehouse owner and he grew up driving rigs and forklifts). He used to be really happy in the lunch room at month’s end because all the rents would be rolling in. One day he was talking about taking on more overtime. I asked him why, knowing he was worth millions, and he replied: “‘Cause I’m saving up to buy an apartment building out in Chilliwack.” His opinion on RE in 2005 was bearish for Greater Vancouver: “you can’t get in on Vancouver, Burnaby, Coquitlam, even Poco, any more” because prices were already too high. But he anticipated Chilliwack, Abbotsford, etc. to see further increases and wanted to invest. I am not clear if he just wanted the building for rental income or as investment. Nobody at the warehouse begrudged the guy for all his RE investments, despite a largely blue-collar work crew, because he was a stand up guy and had amazing energy. I dropped out of contact with him in 06, so I don’t know if he did buy that apartment building.

The second example made my jaw drop. A guy I knew from a sports class in his early twenties did nothing else but RE investments, flipping, for a living. I suspect he got his start with a large DP from family or with some lucky assignment flips. He went from taking the bus and wearing scruffy clothes in ’05 to a Benz, tall blond girlfriend, the works, in the space of a couple of years. All he did, literally, was RE buying and selling, full time. In early ’08 I ran into him last and asked how the downturn was affecting him. He said he felt sorry for those getting in on the game late, who did not have the reserves to absorb the losses, but that “we” – his partners included perhaps – had enough reserves to ride it through.”

21 Responses to “The more I think back over the past six years, the more I realise how crazy this town has actually been. As a naive 24 year old, when I arrived in 2004 I took it as a fact of life that house prices rose forever.”

  1. It sounds like this naive 24 yr old drank a couple of sips of the cool aid, but didn’t do anything else for the last 6 years other than watch his buds make money and party it up. Sour grapes? Yeah, most likely. Needless to say, it’s definitely a little premature to pile onto the “I told you so” bandwagon after completely missing the boat for all these years, don’t you think?

    • haha. I didn’t “tell you so” to anyone. I just listened to their tales with a lot of envy, some respect, admiration, even awe, and did I mention, a lot of envy. I would have bought in wholeheartedly had I any start-up capital. I loved the Kool-aid. (whose fault is it that I didn’t have any money to buy in? mine, of course. I blame no one else. I could have gone straight to work in my profession after graduation, in Europe, and earned a packet but NOOOOOO I had to go and travel the fucking world and see places and be a fucking bum for three years and arrive in Canada with just enough to prove to immigration they could put me on a plane out at a moment’s notice) but regardless who’s to blame, it is an extremely bitter pill for anyone to take, and I defy ANYONE to deny that they would feel the same, when any donkey with some capital can make enough to play helicopter golf all day while others who don’t, have to work damn hard just to save up for a downpayment on a home they want to live in, modestly, and will in all likelihood never achieve that goal.

      Some day, my time will come, I always believed. Then the harsh economic reality of being an immigrant whose qualifications were good enough where he came from but didn’t quite cut it in Canada, and of having two small children and paying a spouse’s way through school, really made me miss that boat. (it’s amazing the things men will do for sex. I hated this city and it wasn’t my decision to live here but whatever. Still my fault, and I don’t blame anyone for my circumstances). Median household wages just don’t cut it, and haven’t done so for the past six years. Even if I went up to. say, 200k a year in income, I would still have missed the boat.

      Yes, it’s all too easy to sit around and gloat at others’ misfortunes… but who, in all honesty, doesn’t enjoy a little table turning? I am happy to see this ridiculous carnival come to an end. I didn’t get to participate, so now I don’t get to cheer a return to normalcy? I just want to reiterate, up until one month ago and my discovery of actual hard math instead of realtor fluff in the MSM, I NEVER TOLD ANYONE “SO”. I wanted to play with all the other children at the bonfire, but I wasn’t invited.

      Now, though, I will be the first to point and say, a’ la’ the Simpsons’ Nelson:

      “HAAAA- HAAAAA!” as they roll around trying to douse the flames.

      Fuck, but then I am a sucker for helping people so I will probably grab an extinguisher and then a consolational kleenex. Maybe then the big kids will like me next time and will let me play too.

      • I could have gone straight to work in my profession after graduation, in Europe, and earned a packet but NOOOOOO I had to go and travel the fucking world and see places and be a fucking bum for three years and arrive in Canada with just enough to prove to immigration they could put me on a plane out at a moment’s notice)

        But instead of some plaster and cardboard you now have some memories you can tell your kids.

        And hey, I did the same. Unlike most North American’s though I am not bummed out about renting. The “American Dream” never was mine, at least not the whole nine yards, the pieces I do like I have achieved and enjoy.

        Maybe one day I’ll buy something, but for now I have no interest and it’s not just me saying this because I didn’t buy into the market, it really is not my dream at this point.

        My “obsession” with Real Estate comes out of the simple realization that if the market tanks it will have repercussions beyond housing prices and that’s the part I really am not looking forward to. I mean, 1/8th of the Provinces GDP comes from people who take out loans to buy a property to live in (Check BC Stats website), add another 1/8th in for the Construction industry and a whopping 25% are directly hanging on people buying into the market. The knock on effect once these 25% go away (or even only halved) will be severe.

    • Michael, regarding memories versus cardboard: I loved every minute of that life… I also love my little kids, and while in years to come I am sure I can tell them many interesting things it doesn’t help a great deal now when stability is required. The eldest is going into kindergarten this year and we still don’t know when we will have to yank her out because we don’t know where we will live for the next fifteen years. That is my interest in owning a house and/or in making money more easily. Family. Priorities in life change, but opportunities are a function of past decisions.

      • Probably not really helping you, but my reading of the next 10 – 20 years is that they will be very chaotic… Flexibility will be the name of the game.

        But yeah, I get the “nesting” idea, I don’t think it will be doable for the vast majority of people, at least not for a while as things are unwinding.

  2. hey michael, i am also not too thrilled about having to make our way through the coming post-collapse economy. In fact i keep deferring my long term career choice because the risks in picking the wrong one are immense. I have three self employed income streams that survived the last downturn-but even they may not survive the big one. Even (especially?) many govt jobs may be at risk in the coming years… I would add another important gdp component to your list. Do you know how much of bc’s gdp is due to higher education of foreign students? Not simply directly from tuition fees, but in every expenditure that sudents and their families make, from the homes and cars they buy to the tutors they employ. I have been personally involved in one form of employment deriving its income from such students, having tutored hundreds of foreign students. My household expenditures in turn pump that money back into the local economy. I am not sure how long that particular boom will last, but i do know that the present level of grade inflation will eventually devalue bc as a choice for many. A cultural shift away from the huge emphasis placed on higher ed would also blast a hole in bc’s economy. Anyway,, i will come back to this point later…. I just wanted to share another anecdote i just remembered. One of my former students (from mainland china) came here in 2001, bought condo with dad’s money in coquitlam, sold in 2005, bought home in van, sold in 2007, went back to china with 300,000 dollars net after living costs and tuition fees. What a successful young entrepreneur! An investment genius, indeed. of course i have nothing aginst the guy, nor against anyone who did well. All i want to point out is how easy it is for almost anyone to make money if they already have money in a bull market. You would be stupid not to participate if you had the cash. If you don’t, you just have to put your head down and slog away for a generation or two. I am human, and i don’t care who thinks i have sour grapes for posting up tales of the lucky in the right place at the right time. Shit, people, the contrast is just too much to ignore!!!

    • hey michael, i am also not too thrilled about having to make our way through the coming post-collapse economy. In fact i keep deferring my long term career choice because the risks in picking the wrong one are immense.

      I think the majority of people who count on full time employment will find themselves in a bad position soon.

      I have three self employed income streams that survived the last downturn-but even they may not survive the big one. Even (especially?) many govt jobs may be at risk in the coming years…

      Yes, cuts will be coming across the board. The scary thing for me is that it seems not even the economists seem to understand the size of the problem, case in point that idiot from one of the banks last year who said with a straight face that people will not default on their mortgages and instead make cuts somewhere else.

      I would add another important gdp component to your list. Do you know how much of bc’s gdp is due to higher education of foreign students? Not simply directly from tuition fees, but in every expenditure that sudents and their families make, from the homes and cars they buy to the tutors they employ.

      I do not remember that being captured by the stats, but I would guess (based on the other numbers I remember) that it will be around 5% DIRECTLY, the knock on effect is a different thing, I would say realistically, all factored in between housing and the education sector including knock on effects we’ll be looking at least at a 30% contraction, could be more.

      I have been personally involved in one form of employment deriving its income from such students, having tutored hundreds of foreign students. My household expenditures in turn pump that money back into the local economy. I am not sure how long that particular boom will last, but i do know that the present level of grade inflation will eventually devalue bc as a choice for many.

      BC and Canada as a whole benefited from the US paranoia after 9/11, this will quickly change though I am sure.

      Looking here in the Westend what I noticed was that around 3 years ago a shift started happening towards more middle eastern people (including restaurants), over the last year more Japanese are showing up, there are several Japanese families with little kids living in my building now. How they pull that off I am not quite sure, the small units are less than 500sqft but I have seen a family of three living in there, the “large” ones (~600sqft) has up to four people in it. Quite impressive really.

      A cultural shift away from the huge emphasis placed on higher ed would also blast a hole in bc’s economy.

      Ah, being from Europe I never understood the obsession people here have with the piece of paper. The price of admission is just too high. Was thinking of maybe going to Uni “for fun” but after seeing the tuition fees I realized I can buy a lot of books for that money and still do other things.

      Anyway,, i will come back to this point later…. I just wanted to share another anecdote i just remembered. One of my former students (from mainland china) came here in 2001, bought condo with dad’s money in coquitlam, sold in 2005, bought home in van, sold in 2007, went back to china with 300,000 dollars net after living costs and tuition fees. What a successful young entrepreneur! An investment genius, indeed. of course i have nothing aginst the guy, nor against anyone who did well. All i want to point out is how easy it is for almost anyone to make money if they already have money in a bull market.

      Yep.

      You would be stupid not to participate if you had the cash. If you don’t, you just have to put your head down and slog away for a generation or two.

      See, I think it depends on what you want from life. The House, the wife, the white picket fence, the two cars and 2.4 kids aren’t really what I want out of life (I am in my mid 30s now). I like the IDEA of that, but having stayed with people who “live the dream” and seeing how much stress it is I rather have my life where I can sock away a huge amount of money and still do all the things that I want to do. That’s my definition of “Quality of Life” really, but then I have been told I am weird :P

      Anyway, to make money into the market (without the luck of a bubble) you need a solid financial basis, and no rental property I ever looked at over the last 8 years or so ever would have been cashflow positive. Even now with a correcting market on the horizon rent prices will come down again too as there will be many unwilling Landlords out there.

      MMmhhh… Maybe I should start a property management company for all those people.

      I am human, and i don’t care who thinks i have sour grapes for posting up tales of the lucky in the right place at the right time. Shit, people, the contrast is just too much to ignore!!!

      I don’t have a problem with people who timed the market, I do have a problem with people who think because they got lucky anybody who isn’t in the market is an idiot.

  3. “Looking here in the Westend what I noticed was that around 3 years ago a shift started happening towards more middle eastern people (including restaurants), over the last year more Japanese are showing up, there are several Japanese families with little kids living in my building now. How they pull that off I am not quite sure, the small units are less than 500sqft but I have seen a family of three living in there, the “large” ones (~600sqft) has up to four people in it. Quite impressive really.”

    It’s easy for Japanese families; that’s the size of place they are used to. I lived with my then-girlfriend and now-wife in a 200 sf apartment with sleeping loft in Tokyo. I had a Japanese gf before that, and her family’s home was around 500 sf. You get used to it; it’s quite nice in a way as it places natural limits on junk and clutter.

    “I realized I can buy a lot of books for that money and still do other things.”

    Yes, but only in certain fields can you parlay that into a job. Computer programming, writing, and a few others come to mind, but in general here if you want to pick potatoes, you need a potato picker’s certificate. I have “helped” students in Ivy league Universities with their Masters’ theses, but without ponying up the fees myself there is nothing I can put on paper that an employer here would recognize. I also dallied with school here, before the second child was born – the first thing they want is $1000 in tuition fees for two English courses, because obviously I cannot speak English well enough to merit entrance into their programs. Guess where I got my degree…

    “See, I think it depends on what you want from life. The House, the wife, the white picket fence, the two cars and 2.4 kids aren’t really what I want out of life (I am in my mid 30s now). I like the IDEA of that, but having stayed with people who “live the dream” and seeing how much stress it is I rather have my life where I can sock away a huge amount of money and still do all the things that I want to do. That’s my definition of “Quality of Life” really, but then I have been told I am weird”

    Hehe. I WAS admittedly weird. Still am. All I cared about was learning more about the world, whether through books, or travel, and money was necessary only insofar as it facilitated that learning. I guess I must have had the settler gene recessed in me somewhere, because after a few long years the wife managed to swing my priorities around 180 degrees. (And somewhere along the line all the sleep deprivation from trying to make it here with kids deleted most of the data I had amassed from my world studies…) I know it’s a cliche’ to say that children change you, but hombre, you have to do the right thing if you brought other humans into the world. I can’t fix the rest of the world’s problems, though I want to try, until I have taken care of my responsibilities to them.

    I don’t want to make assumptions about you, but it does sound like you don’t have kids?

    • It’s easy for Japanese families; that’s the size of place they are used to. I lived with my then-girlfriend and now-wife in a 200 sf apartment with sleeping loft in Tokyo. I had a Japanese gf before that, and her family’s home was around 500 sf. You get used to it; it’s quite nice in a way as it places natural limits on junk and clutter.

      Oh, no argument from me, though the floor space layout in these places is pretty horrible too so effectivly you have less.

      I can live in the 600sqft quite well though I also lose quite a bit of space due to crappy layout / kitchen.

      Yes, but only in certain fields can you parlay that into a job. Computer programming, writing, and a few others come to mind, but in general here if you want to pick potatoes, you need a potato picker’s certificate.

      Well, I’ve been in the Techfield for a long time and certainly, you don’t need a degree if you have experience. Getting that may be more of a problem now than it was back in the day.

      I have “helped” students in Ivy league Universities with their Masters’ theses, but without ponying up the fees myself there is nothing I can put on paper that an employer here would recognize. I also dallied with school here, before the second child was born – the first thing they want is $1000 in tuition fees for two English courses, because obviously I cannot speak English well enough to merit entrance into their programs. Guess where I got my degree…

      So are you from here or how did you end up in the best place on earth™? But yeah, I call it the educational-industrial complex.

      Hehe. I WAS admittedly weird. Still am. All I cared about was learning more about the world, whether through books, or travel, and money was necessary only insofar as it facilitated that learning. I guess I must have had the settler gene recessed in me somewhere, because after a few long years the wife managed to swing my priorities around 180 degrees.

      Yeah, that was / is my life pretty much, though minus the wife, so so far I have not been “tamed”.

      (And somewhere along the line all the sleep deprivation from trying to make it here with kids deleted most of the data I had amassed from my world studies…) I know it’s a cliche’ to say that children change you, but hombre, you have to do the right thing if you brought other humans into the world. I can’t fix the rest of the world’s problems, though I want to try, until I have taken care of my responsibilities to them.

      Oh I have seen that in others. No doubt.

      I don’t want to make assumptions about you, but it does sound like you don’t have kids?

      Nope, by choice. May sound cynical but I figure the last thing the world needs are more mouths to feed. That, and the idea to essentially say: “Here son, we fucked that one up, but now it’s all yours. Good luck.” didn’t seem to be too appealing to me.

    • BTW, wild guess here, but you aren’t by any chance @camcavers?

      • “That, and the idea to essentially say: “Here son, we fucked that one up, but now it’s all yours. Good luck.” didn’t seem to be too appealing to me.”

        hahahahahaha I haven’t laughed that hard in a long while!

        No point in worrying, the sun will engulf all in the end. just would be nice to be able to leave a nice looking streak through time and space of harmony of man with environment, of art, music, beauty, kindness and compassion, instead of a string of fuck-ups, greed, war, death, and hedonism… but one needs the other to exist.

        Umm as for having kids, I don’t want to say it was all the wife’s idea, because I could have said no…. but as we all know, and as the Offspring put it so eloquently, “I know, I could say no, but/ it’s kinda hard when she’s ready to go.” No deeper reason.

        And finally, no I am not blessed enough to be from The Best Place on Meth.. I should just be grateful that I get to live here.

        No I am not at camcavers.

        In the tech field, eh? I am half considering investing a year in self teaching Java and taking unpaid internship… would be cheaper than school. Not sure how that would pan out in the long run, but I loved C++when I took it as part of engineering here… before another kid and life got in the way and I quit.

      • hahahahahaha I haven’t laughed that hard in a long while!

        No point in worrying, the sun will engulf all in the end. just would be nice to be able to leave a nice looking streak through time and space of harmony of man with environment, of art, music, beauty, kindness and compassion, instead of a string of fuck-ups, greed, war, death, and hedonism… but one needs the other to exist.

        Oh I am not debating that we don’t need the dark to see the light. But in my estimate we will go through a rather dark period and I am not too positive over the near (100 year) future really.

        Umm as for having kids, I don’t want to say it was all the wife’s idea, because I could have said no…. but as we all know, and as the Offspring put it so eloquently, “I know, I could say no, but/ it’s kinda hard when she’s ready to go.” No deeper reason.

        Yeah, so it can happen :)

        And finally, no I am not blessed enough to be from The Best Place on Meth.. I should just be grateful that I get to live here.

        Hey, I ended up here by chance too. Though there seems to be a clear personality difference between people born here and people who moved here out of different reasons.

        In the tech field, eh? I am half considering investing a year in self teaching Java and taking unpaid internship… would be cheaper than school. Not sure how that would pan out in the long run, but I loved C++when I took it as part of engineering here… before another kid and life got in the way and I quit.

        Yep, tech field it is…. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend Java though. Still big in the Enterprise market but I don’t think this is where the work will be in the future and there are already a lot of Javatards out there.

        As for camcavers, was a guess, the general circumstances seem to fit.

  4. “But yeah, I call it the educational-industrial complex.”

    Education…. yes…. you have no idea how deep is the rot in that particular enterprise.

  5. Were you the one who said that money represents work, in a prior thread? I made that observation to some friends back in ’01. No one agreed with me.

    • Were you the one who said that money represents work, in a prior thread? I made that observation to some friends back in ’01. No one agreed with me.

      Yep. And I know nobody sees money (or debt) that way, this is a big part on why we’re in such trouble.

      Humans aren’t very good dealing with abstract things. For most people money has just become a number that changes on pieces of paper, some numbers are more desirable than others, but nobody really GETS what these numbers mean.

      I have the feeling a lot of retirees will soon find out the hard way.

    • Michael -> “For most people money has just become a number that changes on pieces of paper, some numbers are more desirable than others, but nobody really GETS what these numbers mean.”


      Agree with your work/money discussion. This has been my belief for more than a decade (since the tech bubble). The numbers became meaningless.
      When you consider how long it would take even a well paid Canadian to save $200K, or $400K, etc. Yet these amounts, in Vancouver, came to be considered trivial.
      There is very, very little doubt that, once we hit the debt wall (already there?) we’ll commence a return to times when we’ll gain that perspective again. $10K will become valued as the amount you could save if you worked this hard and budgeted this much; not the amount that your condo appreciated last month while you sat on your butt.
      Put another way, prudent hard-working folk came to feel foolish, and risk-taking speculators were rewarded; that will turn full cycle before this is over.

      • “Yep. And I know nobody sees money (or debt) that way, this is a big part on why we’re in such trouble.”

        Yes, exactly! And that’s also why we (as a society) are going to be unbelievably messed up as the baby boomers retire and those of us underneath take over.

        The boomers may have saved up money, which represents work, to fund their retirements, and they’ve invested this money in stocks and houses. They’re planning on drawing that money down towards zero during retirement.

        The only problem is this: everybody’s looking at that money as money that has been saved.

        The reality is it represents work and production– work and production which Gen X/Y/etc has to exert. And unfortunately there are fewer of us to do that work, but more people wanting the output of that work.

        Which creates a problem: Boomers may have “enough money”, but there won’t be enough production for everybody. Which means that either the *price* of the production has to rise (inflation), or we all have to consume less. Or the “assets” and “investments” held by boomers have to drop in value. Or some combination of the above.

      • Froogle Scott

        It’s been taking us about five months to pay off the amount of each cheque we wrote against our HELOC every two weeks during the height of our renovation. And that’s at an interest rate (variable) below 3%.

        Thank god our renovation, once it really got going, didn’t last that long. And thank god we stopped when we did…

  6. well said.

  7. Pingback: “It’s been taking us about five months to pay off the amount of each cheque we wrote against our HELOC every two weeks during the height of our renovation. And that’s at an interest rate below 3%.” | Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive

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