‘Bob’ sent the following note and images to VREAA by e-mail, 14 Oct 2010 - “I’m a Vancouverite who recently had a chance to spend time in New York City. The five boroughs have a total population of 8.4 million and a population density of 10,630/km2. The New York metropolitan area has a population of 19 million and an approximately gross metropolitan product of $1.13 trillion (2005). By comparison, our entire nation, the whole of Canada, has a GDP of about $1.3 trillion (2009).
While walking about the city, my wife and I found ourselves looking at photos posted in an upscale realtor window (housing ‘porn’, as some people call it), advertising Upper East-side apartments and condos. Desensitized to high prices by the Vancouver real estate market, we were pretty surprised to see the kind of thing you can get in Manhattan for your buck.
For instance, to give some examples that come up after an internet search (in these cases all by Sotheby’s) – this 1 BR in a very prime area, ‘close to Fifth Avenue, located on New York’s Museum Mile next to Central Park’, ask $950K:
Or this 900 squ.ft 1BR, 10.5ft ceilings, at 45 East 66th Street, (on Madison Ave, one block from Central park), ask $895K:
Or this smaller 1BR at 345 East 77th Street, ask $399K:
Later, looking to get an early dinner, we asked a respectable looking fellow for restaurant advice. Me: “Excuse me, do you know this neighbourhood?”, He: “I should do, I’m a realtor.” After he gave us advice regarding where to eat (good advice, it turned out), we asked him about the market. He told us about apartments nearby in the Upper Eastside that were selling in the $600K range. (Looking around the web, for instance at these recent Corcoran sales, it seems properties below $1Million are selling in the $500-$900/squ.ft range, with lots in the $625-$700/squ.ft price range). Perhaps your readers with more experience of the Vancouver condo market can offer opinions on how these prices compare with ours. They seemed like good value by Vancouver standards to me. [Recent sales from prior link saved for the archives here. - ed.] On top of this, it looks like the US property market is about to take yet another step down.
I’m not going to try to list all the appeals of NYC. Anybody who hasn’t seen the place should visit. It is indisputably one of the greatest cities in the world. On this note, I stumbled across two things that led me to consider Vancouver, and BC, and our much discussed ‘Greatest Place On Earth’ theme -
The first was from an ad for a iPhone app that allows you to identify activities of interest around you in NYC. I was struck by the modesty of the claim -
The second was a painting by artist David Shrigley, seen at the Anton Kern Gallery in Chelsea, NYC. For the record, I love Vancouver, and love living here, but seeing this painting in NYC did make me chuckle. A teasing contrast to ‘Greatest Place On Earth’ and ‘Everything Is Going To Be Alright’ -
In order to judge the comparability based on price per square foot, I’d have to see what a typical rental rate is for these places. Based on what I know of Manhattan rental rates, it will be in the many thousands of dollars.
I’d look at stuff in other parts of the central city — Village or SoHo for example — to get a good sense of the apartment scene in Manhattan.
Luxury rentals in Vancouver will probably rent for about $2.75/sqft, assuming they are truly “luxury.” So the 900 sqft apartment in the post above would rent for about $2500/month in Vancouver (which would be an abysmal 2.5-3% cap rate). My guess is the actual rent will be significantly higher in Manhattan.
the prices are pretty comparable in Vancouver and NY, the one big difference though is that the property taxes and strata are way higher in NY.
A $1mil apartment in NY typically has about $20k-25K/year in taxes in strata cost (compared to about $7-8k) here.
ummm RF, I dont know where you got those numbers but I work with someone who has a $1million condo downtown and his strata fees are $600 a month. 600 x 12 = 7200. So unless his property taxes are $800 (they arent) you are a bit off.
I cant comment on NY, but a $1million condo has an upkeep of higher than 1% I can assure you.
I have 3 friends (1 PhD, 1 IT manager, 1 software engineer) who’ve left Vancouver for New York. None live in Manhattan, although all in the 5 boroughs: they all have more disposable income because jobs pay better.
I think the claims of being a great urban centre actually change how we’re being compared. In the 80s I compared Vancouver to Halifax and Calgary and it was pretty cool. Then it was compared to Montreal and Toronto and it was holding its own – but at current prices vs. what the city provides, people are leaving.
But it’s a disservice to compare Vancouver to places like New York and London. We start thinking about being World Class Urbanites. Then we go to the big centres of finance and art and politics and food and fashion and think, wait: THIS is an urban experience. Suddenly, Vancouver looks shabby and moldy and grouchy and a little tired. We’re a lovely city – and we’re not a New York. That’s fine, it’s good.
if you want to split hairs, davers, go ahead. I’m not talking about upkeep, i’m just talking property taxes and ‘strata’. It’s around $1800-$2500 in Manhattan.
Here’s it’s somewhere between $500 to $1000. Take your pick. The point is that although I agree, the prices here and on the upper east side (and I’ve looked them up many times before today) are around the same, the ongoing cost of ownership in Manhattan is much higher (somewhere between double and triple).
Thanks for the comments, all.
And thanks for the heads up regarding higher monthly fees in NYC.
If you follow the link Bob provided to Corcoran NYC sales, it seems that taxes plus maintenance for most properties vary between $1K and $2K per month. If we take the difference between that and the equivalent in Vancouver (between $500 and $1K, possibly?), it’s perhaps about $1K per month more expensive to own a NYC property with a similar headline price.
And that $1K/month ‘buys’ a lot more mortgage, so, it does seem that Manhattan is still more expensive than Vancouver (as it should be).
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Afterthought: One upshot of this is that an individual in Vancouver with a carrying cost of, say, $3K per month is far more exposed to the RE market than an individual in NYC with the same monthly outlay. The extra monthly expenses in NYC ensure that buyers there are less leveraged to the headline price of the property than here.
Let’s not forget that salaries are higher and personal income taxes are lower in New York, therefore disposable income is higher than here, making that equivalent condo in New York more affordable than something similar here. Plus the added bonus of being able to deduct your mortgage interest off your income tax in the US.
Again, you have to look at rental rates to get a better gauge (along with prop taxes and maintenance as was mentioned) of value compared to Vancouver. Anyone know what these places rent for?
Quick google search of the Upper East Side, the “no longer availables” – 400 block East 79th had a studio rental for $2200, a 1 bedroom for $3000; nice 2 bedroom on 75th street, $8500. Found 3 and 4 bedrooms for $10-15k/month; wasn’t able to find any 5 bedrooms.
Yep. Better ratios, there.
Meanwhile, at the Olympic village…
Here is a funny posting and Craigslist advertised as: “$1500 / 1br – Olympic Village Apartment for Rent – Brand New Rental Suite – Must See (Olympic Village – Vancouver)”
But once the ad opened, here is what the description says: “Available Immediately at $1500, November 1st at $1550, $1600 after November 1st.”
You would be penalized by $1200 per year if you thought of waiting one month before jumping on that ‘amazing opportunity’… I’m wondering what they are thinking?
Condos in downtown Vancouver are typically asking about $500-$700 per square foot.Higher end luxury waterfront condos will of course be asking more, but this is a general number. Rental rates judging from the comments are quite a bit higher in NY than in Vancouver, a typical 1 bedroom suite downtown will be about $1200-$1400 per month for rent. The rental rate will be a bit more if it’s furnished nicely.